The how does anything exist thread

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France benj89
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The how does anything exist thread

Post by benj89 »

haha metis, i totally feel you for the transfer credit thing, even if your situation was pretty messed up
its mostly a matter of perspective, like what do you want to do right after college, working or going to grad school
"Recall that Spinoza ground lenses, Thales speculated in oil (olive) and Socrates was a soldier" I actually didn't know any of that, interesting!
for the money aspect, many school (especially liberal art college) offer great scholarship to, and important amount of student in those got 50%+ tuition covered
about heidegger , i pretty much gave up for few month with this guy, struggled enough 6 month last year trying to figure out dasein and few other concept, which I still don't really get. A teacher once told me he needed 20 years to try really understand heidegger philosophy and he still doesn't totally get it, insane
"Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, bait the hook with prestige." - Paul Graham
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Post by deleted_user0 »

calmyourtits wrote:
umeu wrote:This is merely a language trick, eg a trick language plays on you. Nothing is the opposite of being, and being is an activity and not a thing. So nothing is the negation of being, which is existing, and thus nothing is not existing. Atleast according to heidegger (or my understanding of him)
The point is that it underlines how pointless the question is.



It is, if you are looking for direct practical uses. It isnt if you use it as a stepping stone for a pretty elaborate and imo accurate analasys of western society and its problems, as he did. Whether you agree is something else.

@benj imo its hard to understand daseif if you dont understand his critique of being, which begins exactly with musketjrs question. Its still complicated stuff, probably unnecessary so, but perhaps the difficulty arises in translation. Alot of his philosophy is semantics, of oldgreek and german, and thus its very hard to translate.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

metis wrote:
drlegend wrote:Knowledge for knowledges sake isnt going to pay the bills. Thanks to the Internet it is possible to build your own education program in philosophy
Not all that long ago you could take a college course or even obtain a degree for your personal edification at a reasonable cost. Back then I was a big proponent of a well-rounded education that included subjects from many classical disciplines. Now, that Philosophy 101 you have to take for your humanities credit may cost you upwards of?$1,500?in tuition, fees and texts.


I believe that there are much better courses to be taken for that money. Id much rather an employee had taken a welding course than a philosophy course. The same does for the PE credits that most universities make new students take. I remember fighting with the administration of one of my undergrad universities because they wanted me to take a PE class and didnt consider six years in the military, where we did an hour of calisthenics and ran?3 miles a day plus two years of Taekwondo as being enough PE. I finally took a wilderness skills class that was given for a PE credit' not that I needed it either, having gone through Army survival training and being TDY as the medic and wilderness skills instructor at a Boy Scout camp for a summer.


I worked as a maintenance man and night manager for the four years I was studying philosophy. I can barely remember the philosophy classes I took but I remember all sorts of interesting things I did at work. The?knowledge I obtained doing?building maintenance?and dealing with tenants problems far surpassed the philosophical knowledge I?attained.


Recall that Spinoza ground lenses, Thales speculated in oil (olive) and Socrates was a soldier.



Maybe in usa, not in mainland europe. Even without government intervention a normal course would cost you 4 months salary for 1 year. Thus its possible to saving for 2 years to pay for your degree, assuming u ace in the time given (3-4 years), though its not needed.
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Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

benj89 wrote:about heidegger , i pretty much gave up for few month with this guy, struggled enough 6 month last year trying to figure out dasein and few other concept, which I still don''t really get. A teacher once told me he needed 20 years to try really understand heidegger philosophy and he still doesn''t totally get it, insane
That''s the continental school for you.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

I thought it was more important to be a good person than one with a wellpaid job. What if you dont care that you are a janitor or a farmer or mechanic when you have a philosophy phd. There seems to be a rather elitist bias towards those kinds of jobs, as if being a stockbroker is inately better, just because you make more money.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

I am not making a dychotomy, you are putting words in my mouth and avoid to answer the question. Wasnt it, according to you, more important to be a good person, regardless of wether you are rich or poor? Nowhere did i say that you cant be a good person if you are rich, or that the poor are naturally good.

its completely irrelevant that you can get those jobs without studying. Why cant a janitor also study philosophy, or why cant a philosophy phd work as a janitor?
The way you seem to judge the phd who works as a janitor as something that never should be allowed to happen reeks of totalitarianism to me. If he has no problem with it, why should you? Its his freedom to follow education and then do with it whatever he pleases.

And your last example is completely bs. So what if i get superrich as a mob enforcer, enslaving people, murdering people, soing all kinds of evil stuff, but i donate the money i make to charity, such as eliminating malaria, am i now a good person? Obviously not. Even though you cannot deny the money will have the same effect if it came from a saint. So what matters seems not to be only the consequences so much as well your intentions and the context of your actions. And when the poor philosopher with his modest means lives a good life, then why is this morally worse than a stockbroker who lives a good life but has tons of cash to spend?
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Post by deleted_user0 »

Which country do you live in?
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Post by deleted_user0 »

Can you please answer the question? It will help me understand.

Ps you are not only avoiding my questions, but deflecting again with condescending remarks aimed at my person (previous post).

In any case, your argument isnt aimed at philosophy, because if the phd wouldve had a billion dollars, then apoarantly it would be fine. And if the phd had studied economy instead and then decided he wqnted to be a janitor, then you should raise the same objections.

Besides that, your arguments about having others to pay everything for you when you would do the aforementioned are nothing but speculation and completely exaggerated, if not wrong entirely (perhaps depending on the country you live in). Its not like you dont have a job or are not working. And its not like a person is only that which he studies or does for a living. Its easily possible that the phd posseses talents that have nothing to do with his study which would make it possible for him to make a living. You can make a decent living as a mechanic, perhaps even as a janitor, i dont know. In any case it should be enough, more than enough to provide for your own person. And if not, then there is something wrong with a society or system in which the people it needs to do certain jobs to keep going cannot provide for themself by doing that work.
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Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

drlegend wrote:What do you want to understand? I prefer not to mention any personal information about age, location or appearance online. I''ve posted everything I am willing to divulge online in the Introduction thread. (:))
You live in the UK.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

frycookofdoom wrote:
drlegend wrote:What do you want to understand? I prefer not to mention any personal information about age, location or appearance online. Ive posted everything I am willing to divulge online in the Introduction thread.?? (:))
You live in the UK.?



I knew that actually.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

drlegend wrote:What do you want to understand? I prefer not to mention any personal information about age, location or appearance online. I''ve posted everything I am willing to divulge online in the Introduction thread.?? (:))

In any case, your argument isnt aimed at philosophy, because if the phd wouldve had a billion dollars, then apoarantly it would be fine. And if the phd had studied economy instead and then decided he wqnted to be a janitor, then you should raise the same objections.



Besides that, your arguments about having others to pay everything for you when you would do the aforementioned are nothing but speculation and completely exaggerated, if not wrong entirely (perhaps depending on the country you live in). Its not like you dont have a job or are not working. And its not like a person is only that which he studies or does for a living. And even if you were, You can make a decent living as a mechanic, perhaps even as a janitor, i dont know. In any case it should be enough, more than enough to provide for your own person. And if not, then there is something wrong with a society or system in which the people it needs to do certain jobs to keep going cannot provide for themself by doing that work.
I am personally criticizing the decision to major in philosophy because I care what happens to people and I don''t want them to be stuck on welfare or working low-paying jobs because employers don''t consider philosophy a useful skill in the job market. If I weren''t moral I would be encouraging people to get junk degrees and then suffer for at least a few years until they realize you can succeed in life without a college education and a few dozen grand in debt.



[/quote]. Mind your business and others will take care of themselves.[/quote]
Right?

I thought you were pro freedom, this should include the freedom to make your own mistakes, if they are mistakes at all. You are so focused on your narrow definition of success that you are blind to the fact that for some people success doesnt mean a million in the bank and two cars infront of their villa. And that their definition isnt lesser than yours.
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Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

drlegend wrote:
frycookofdoom wrote:You live in the UK.
Dont even joke about that.

[img]http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/shudder.gif[/img]
IP address doesnt lie.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

Its not a character attack, im merely quoting your own words. I dont see how this is insulting.

I never said i wanted to end industrialisation of china. Its getting old that you constantly accuse me of things i didnt say.

Obviously you can say your opinion, but im wondering ehy you bother if you aparantly believed everyone is perfectly capable of making their own decisions. On top of that im under the impression that morality has little to do with your argument in this case (which in no way means i doubt your moral integrity, before you accuse me of saying that).
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Post by deleted_user0 »

griggles wrote:Griggley giggley thought, how can that be which is naught? What could cause the cause of causation? Could we go back forever, without creation? If things can''t go on so long, maybe the concept of time is wrong.



Mr.griggles can i get your autograph?!?
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Post by ramex12 »

well from everything I watched about this I came to the conclusion that we simply cannot answer those questions, we can just imagine anything we want, but we humans have limits and there are questions that we'll never be able to answer.
Pluss, we always think with time, because our brain is made to work in time (or to create time, thats still not clear) so we cannot imagine anything or anywhere where time or space does not exist, so we ask "when did this all begin?", "where does it come from?", "there had to be a beginnning"
but we forget that time and space are only available in our universe.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

drlegend wrote:You have subtly questioned the morality of my beliefs since Andy''s first political thread. (zzz)?What ?you mean why I care? I''m a human being and naturally don''t want others to suffer too much. I''m also severely conservative and wish to see the size of the government reduced to as small as possible and it is well-known that any hint of social trouble quickly becomes an excuse for Marxists to dramatically increase government and take more money and rights from individuals for purposes of wealth redistribution and social justice.



Yes, ive questioned your beliefs and their validity and self-evidence, not wether you sincerely belief that what you believe is good and that you act to do good. Its a difference. I questioned your beliefs, never you (or your integrity). And thus im not insulting you, even though you may feel insulted.

The rest of your post ill just ignore.
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Post by musketjr »

i have the same conclusion but still feel compelled to ask.

what's frustrating is that we know enough to know that the answer/s are beyond anything we can think, outside our intellectual limit. ill hesitantly add the caveat that, at least that seems to be the case at the moment.

i'm fine with time coming into existence shortly after the singularity described by the big bang if that is what happened. time, the base unit of time, afaik is derived by measurement of a ceasium atom's rotations on an atomic scale so there's nothing problematic about that happening only post big bang if we are saying that matter/energy/stuff/whatever only existed post big bang - before that or without those things there would be no movement (energy) and therefore nothing that could be measured to constitute time.

but yea i think we realise anyway that this is a tangent to the underlying problem that anything exists at all
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Post by benj89 »

drlegend wrote:
benj89 wrote:your statement about philosophy as a double major is wrong, at least for good schools (which are what we are talking about? yes, it might be the case for community college and non target schools, but its actually for different reasons than for the validity of the degree). If any, those are for bright students and are very selective (cf double major philosophy and physics at yale). Literally, the bf of my ex roommate had a 240k offer after graduation with this degree.
What Im talking about is philosophy undergrad with good grades in a good/decent school, which I thought was obvious
Legend, I wish you luck in your self-teaching career in philosophy!

This is your argument. Ivy league, not philosophy. Employers see the "Yale" stamp and offer you a job. It has little to nothing to do with the major, unless you think employers actually believe philosophy is useful in the real world. A philosophy degree from an unknown public college will only get you a job at Starbucks.
I tend to believe (not only me actually) that when you talk about study/job opportunity, you go by the optimum you can get for each situation.
So lets put it that way, if you know you arent a smart guy, who wont have great gpa, go to a bad public/regional school, yeah do your accounting degree and get yourself a safe 30-40k job for life (nothing against accounting, Ive met people who loved it but.. not for me)
If you think you are smarter than this, and you enjoy philosophy, get 3.6+ as undergrad (again, I wasnt particularly good in high school, and got 60% covered in college, its a myth that usa college = tons of debt, only valid for few school/if u made bad decisions), then u got one of the best major and opportunities for most grad school. any smart guy even from unknown undergrad with those criterias I mentionned has access to top 30 schools for grad, not only ivies offer high salaries
But then hey, its more practical to be a gardener, you will have your safe job, and you dont have to pay college at all, and some people are really happy with a low salary type of job, not everyone need comfort and luxury like most western people do :)
so to make things more clear since its needed: any degree with average grade (especially business or marketing) from unknown school will led you to being unemployed/shitty job. then two options: you come from top schools, go for philosophy qualified employers know whats up dont worry/you come from average school with top gpa, and your major is very well regarded for grad school (which you have to do in this case)

and all that is actually the reason why "do what you enjoy" in college actually works in the US, as long as you are a smart/determined kid
"Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, bait the hook with prestige." - Paul Graham
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Post by ramex12 »

musketjr wrote:i have the same conclusion but still feel compelled to ask.

what''s frustrating is that we know enough to know that the answer/s are beyond anything we can think, outside our intellectual limit. ill hesitantly add the caveat that, at least that seems to be the case at the moment.

i''m fine with time coming into existence shortly after the singularity described by the big bang if that is what happened. time, the base unit of time, afaik is derived by measurement of a ceasium atom''s rotations on an atomic scale so there''s nothing problematic about that happening only post big bang if we are saying that matter/energy/stuff/whatever only existed post big bang - before that or without those things there would be no movement (energy) and therefore nothing that could be measured to constitute time.

but yea i think we realise anyway that this is a tangent to the underlying problem that anything exists at all
the ceasium atom''s rotations is how we measure time, because it''s something periodic. But there''s no difference with measuring it with the sun placement, apart from the precision. It''s not 100% precise even tho it is very precise. We know how to mesure time but we don''t know much else.
Like does the future already exists? And the past? We can observe the past for sure, just by looking at the stars, but does it exist? We try to understand things in our own brain referential which has it''s caracteristics, that probably false the study completely. So yea it''s interesting to think about things like this (and scary) but it doesn''t lead anywhere, we can only imagine.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

Do you want me to donate a dollar for your effort? It was a nice try...
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Post by benj89 »

drlegend wrote:
benj89 wrote:I tend to believe (not only me actually) that when you talk about study/job opportunity, you go by the optimum you can get for each situation.
So lets put it that way, if you know you arent a smart guy, who wont have great gpa, go to a bad public/regional school, yeah do your accounting degree and get yourself a safe 30-40k job for life (nothing against accounting, Ive met people who loved it but.. not for me)
If you think you are smarter than this, and you enjoy philosophy, get 3.6+ as undergrad (again, I wasnt particularly good in high school, and got 60% covered in college, its a myth that usa college = tons of debt, only valid for few school/if u made bad decisions), then u got one of the best major and opportunities for most grad school. any smart guy even from unknown undergrad with those criterias I mentionned has access to top 30 schools for grad, not only ivies offer high salaries
But then hey, its more practical to be a gardener, you will have your safe job, and you dont have to pay college at all, and some people are really happy with a low salary type of job, not everyone need comfort and luxury like most western people do :)
so to make things more clear since its needed: any degree with average grade (especially business or marketing) from unknown school will led you to being unemployed/shitty job. then two options: you come from top schools, go for philosophy qualified employers know whats up dont worry/you come from average school with top gpa, and your major is very well regarded for grad school (which you have to do in this case)

and all that is actually the reason why "do what you enjoy" in college actually works in the US, as long as you are a smart/determined kid

That is a dangerous statement to make. All of the things that can be accomplished with a philosophy degree can be accomplished either with a different degree or in a lot of cases with no degree at all, "as long as youre a smart/determined kid," so a philosophy degree isnt necessarily 100%% junk but neither is it more valuable than other types of qualifications.
I gave you the stats for acceptance rates, so the point that you have to remember is that yes, you can get into law/mba/med school with any degree, but philosophy is one of the best/most well regarded, thats it. *
"so a philosophy degree isnt necessarily 100%% junk but neither is it more valuable than other types of qualifications." thats pure ignorance, its like making a statement from your own ignorance without any fact to prove it.
I cant really deal with that, I gave you enough information to make you understand that you were wrong, you are stuck on your positions so I give up :)[span] [/span]
*speaking about grad school, they want people who are passionate, excellent in their fields, not another 3.5 business major, trust me on that, if I make this statement its because ive seen enough example/done enough research to realize its true.
"Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, bait the hook with prestige." - Paul Graham
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Post by benj89 »

you manage to teach yourself philosophy on internet, shouldn't be hard for you to figure that out
don't have time to copy paste you links atm
"Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, bait the hook with prestige." - Paul Graham
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Post by deleted_user0 »

Well, atleast he would ace selective reading..
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Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

drlegend wrote:
benj89 wrote:I gave you the stats for acceptance rates, so the point that you have to remember is that yes, you can get into law/mba/med school with any degree, but philosophy is one of the best/most well regarded, thats it. *
"so a philosophy degree isnt necessarily 100%% junk but neither is it more valuable than other types of qualifications." thats pure ignorance, its like making a statement from your own ignorance without any fact to prove it.
I cant really deal with that, I gave you enough information to make you understand that you were wrong, you are stuck on your positions so I give up :)[span] [/span]
*speaking about grad school, they want people who are passionate, excellent in their fields, not another 3.5 business major, trust me on that, if I make this statement its because ive seen enough example/done enough research to realize its true.
Where is the evidence that philosophy majors get accepted into grad school at higher rates or receive high-paying job offers specifically due to the philosophy major?
Where is the evidence that this happens for any major?
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Post by _venox_ »

frycookofdoom wrote:
drlegend wrote:Where is the evidence that philosophy majors get accepted into grad school at higher rates or receive high-paying job offers specifically due to the philosophy major?
Where is the evidence that this happens for any major?
Well I guess since in philosophy you also study the way of thinking and logic, you will gain a better understanding and more qualities, which dont necessarily mean that one gets higher paid jobs but that has better qualifications for the jobs.
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