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France iNcog
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24 Apr 2016, 20:19

Everyone needs to be conscious about what they say and where they say it. But I certainly think it's problematic that I, as a job-seeking teacher, am not comfortable with publicly stating that I think marijuana should be legalized or that smoking a couple joints really isn't a big deal. I'm not even sure how comfortable I would be with posting on facebook that alcohol is significantly more dangerous than weed - even though that's just a factual statement and not my personal opinion.

I also think it's troublesome if other people feel a similar need to moderate themselves from making moderate statements questioning immigration policies. These are examples of hypersensitivity negatively shaping public discourse.

However, there is a far cry between moderate statements questioning immigration policies and statements I've actually seen have repercussions. I don't understand how a teacher can expect to teach muslims (and it's unlikely that European teachers, at least in cities, will have classes free of muslim students/pupils) while publicly stating that Islam represents evil and oppression. (The Norwegian leader of Pegida, who made such statements, lost his job because his pupils, understandably imo, had huge issues with him being supposed to teach them sociology).

At the same time, even though I don't think we're currently in a place where people have really unfairly lost their jobs for making 'politically incorrect' statements (most statement I've seen have job-repercussions has been of the 'let's beat up some shitniggers' type of racism, where I am actually completely fine with it having consequences), we must be cautious about how moderated public speech should be. This is not an easy debate, and attempting to draw a line is kind of a hopeless endeavor - certain statements are obviously not-ok and certain statements are obviously okay, but I can also think of many statements a teacher could possibly make where I would not be sure whether I'd be okay with it. Like, obviously we don't want mobs inciting violence towards minority groups - but we also don't want people to only publicly state opinions that coincide with majority opinion - then there is no longer room for debate. And while I don't really think we're at the point where 'slightly controversial, but should be okay' statements are all that negatively received (aside from the aforementioned drug case ), it's definitely important that we keep track of where we are going..


Not my quote, though I like it.
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Poland pecelot
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24 Apr 2016, 20:43

Yeah, in Poland those who don't want immigrants are called xenophobic. I mean, not every single muslim is a hidden terrorist that wants to blow you up, but a general tendency is that they don't want to assimilate, don't want to work, are aggressive, often rapists, don't know how to treat women in the modern world. Is it politcally incorrect? Or is it just a fact? ;)
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France iNcog
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24 Apr 2016, 20:53

I wasn't thinking about that in particular, more something along the lines of the fact that you can lose a job offer because you've said that you're OK with legal weed is an example.

I imagine if immigration is something which you find bothersome, it could be bad if you get called racist or xenophobic for it.
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Poland pecelot
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25 Apr 2016, 14:54

Yeah, generally people just prefer safe information, non-radical employees and so on. Although I don't really like the political correctness in general, I would imagine someone firing another person for having too radical beliefs if they are not in the line with the company. For example if a company wants to have a reputation of a liberal and democratic company, it could dismiss a person who would advertise idk a right to carry weapon.
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France iNcog
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25 Apr 2016, 15:02

Not sure that you'd get dismissed per se, that sort of stuff would most likely work against you when you haven't been hired yet.
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Sweden cramper
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25 Apr 2016, 16:17

Sweden is just doing exceptionally well here , alot of folks is embracing and acts PC so hard its like the pope himself reading the bible, whatever is in the mainstream newpappers, and media overall is the holy truth which shall not be questioned and there is only thoose who embrace it and are genuine good people.

But I guess this is an overall a western phenomenon widely spread atm.
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Netherlands momuuu
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25 Apr 2016, 22:30

PC BRAH. PC

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Poland pecelot
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25 Apr 2016, 22:42

iNcog wrote:Not sure that you'd get dismissed per se, that sort of stuff would most likely work against you when you haven't been hired yet.

Could work that way, but I imagine if you get employed and after a year or two start advertising aforementioned things while working in a 'liberal' company, I'd assume they would fire you — not officially because of that, but that'd certainly be the case.
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Netherlands momuuu
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26 Apr 2016, 00:48

And that is why we need communism. Aint need no jobs when you got communism. Aint need to be no xenophobe either because nobody wants to go to your country. Its a double solution which is realistically exactly the same as a single solution.

Being politically correct shouldnt mean you cant be factual anymore. Some people would call me politically incorrect when I state facts about Moroccan immigrants (from after ww2) being more involved in criminal circuits than dutch people on average, or when Id state there is a problem with said Morrocans. Its kinda a thing in NL but most people have accepted the truth slightly.

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France iNcog
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26 Apr 2016, 07:46

That is racial profiling, which is illegal in France by the way. You're always to have some ethnicity which is going to factually have a higher crime rate, the question is whether or not that is actually in correlation with other things.
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France iNcog
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26 Apr 2016, 07:47

pecelot wrote:
iNcog wrote:Not sure that you'd get dismissed per se, that sort of stuff would most likely work against you when you haven't been hired yet.

Could work that way, but I imagine if you get employed and after a year or two start advertising aforementioned things while working in a 'liberal' company, I'd assume they would fire you — not officially because of that, but that'd certainly be the case.


It's true, I sometimes forget that you can be laid off relatively easier in countries which are not France.
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Poland pecelot
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26 Apr 2016, 08:06

I'm not sure how it looks in terms of law restrictions, but well, firing someone isn't impossible if you find a reason, and taht's an easy task really.
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France iNcog
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26 Apr 2016, 09:06

Again, that isn't the case in France at all.

In France if you're going to fire someone, they need to be bad enough an employee that it's worth paying them a year's worth of salary when laying them off. That employee is then able to go whine about being fired and get a few thousand more €, since the reason for firing an employee is almost always judged as "abusive".
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Netherlands momuuu
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26 Apr 2016, 10:06

iNcog wrote:That is racial profiling, which is illegal in France by the way. You're always to have some ethnicity which is going to factually have a higher crime rate, the question is whether or not that is actually in correlation with other things.

Trust me it is. Trust me Im not being racist. Im being factual here. It is a huge problem in the Netherlands, and specifically the city where I live in. The truth is that apperantly large groups of arabian immigrants will not properly integrate in a society.

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"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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France iNcog
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26 Apr 2016, 11:20

Remember this thread is about being PC. If you ever say "trust me i'm not being racist" then you automatically discredit whatever it is you're going to say. ^_^

I'll bite though, what is being done wrong?
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Netherlands momuuu
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26 Apr 2016, 11:39

These Moroccan kids tend to go through this 10-15 year long phase in their life where they are absolutely unbearable. Instead of 1 bad apple every 20 kids, theres 4 every 10 or something close to that. In Utrecht, where I live, theres always one school that gets a lot of Moroccan kids. There are so many bad apples that every class is basically out of control. The "white" kids don't want to go to these schools anymore, intensifying the problem. The teachers can't properly teach anymore (one school had kids throwing eggs and other more dangerous things at fucking teachers on a frequent basis) so the grades get worse and worse. In the end the school ceases to exist or solves the problem and makes the Moroccan population go to another school, which faces the seem thing. 4 schools have disappeared in the past, my mother was involved in 3 of those and is trying to save the current Moroccan school from such a fate.

I have had similair experiences in the football league. These teams with a lot of Moroccans where extremely shitty to play against, to the point where my football club moved their competition away from these teams. At the age of 6 I played football games where this other kid would secretly punch me when the referee wasn't looking. SIX FUCKING YEARS OLD. They'd cheat before I literally even know what cheating was. And it never got much better.

Now I'm not saying it's them being Moroccan, or arab, muslim or whatever that's causing the problem. The problem is that the culture they have doesn't match ours and creates extreme friction between the rest of society. The part of "integration" hasn't happened. These are 3rd, 4th or even 5th generation immigrants, and people still tend to refer to them as Moroccans or as "allochtonen" (meaning people from another soil). It's really a serious problem, almost unsolvable.

But hey I'm not PC anymore now XD

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"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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France iNcog
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26 Apr 2016, 11:51

Most regressive people will shout and accuse you of racism if you ever say that to their face really. They'll hide from any constructive debate with a "you're racist" shield.

That said, I know quite a few Arabians myself, most of them are actually fine.

This is why freedom of speech is important and that socialism is bad because it's against freedom of speech, instead promoting PC.
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Netherlands momuuu
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26 Apr 2016, 11:57

iNcog wrote:Most regressive people will shout and accuse you of racism if you ever say that to their face really. They'll hide from any constructive debate with a "you're racist" shield.

That said, I know quite a few Arabians myself, most of them are actually fine.

This is why freedom of speech is important and that socialism is bad because it's against freedom of speech, instead promoting PC.

I like your post with regards to politics and stuff. To me it goes from very sensible to very stupid to very sensible between sentences. It's the perfect flipflop.

But yeah you can't legitemately say such a thing without being boxed in the senseless racist category (which we obviously have quite a few of too given the situation, it's hard to look at it properly without turning into a racist lol). I find it hard myself, I must admit that I've never met a Moroccan that I liked in my life, so it's hard to believe not everyone is like those that I got to know.

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"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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France iNcog
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26 Apr 2016, 12:03

Yes, that more or less sums up how racism works in some cases. There's the dumb, ignorant kind and then there's the "based-on-my-past-experiences-and-my-ability-to-put-tags-on-people" kind of racism. The second one doesn't justify racism (nothing ever does) but it does make it somewhat understandable.

Kind of like how you can go out of your way to understand why a criminal did something, without necessarily condoning it.

Which post where you referring to?
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Netherlands momuuu
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26 Apr 2016, 12:05

All in which you talk about freedom incog

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France iNcog
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26 Apr 2016, 12:15

I see.

freeeeeeeeedoooooommmmmmmmm hurrrrrrr durrrr

^_^
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Poland pecelot
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26 Apr 2016, 17:37

iNcog wrote:Again, that isn't the case in France at all.

In France if you're going to fire someone, they need to be bad enough an employee that it's worth paying them a year's worth of salary when laying them off. That employee is then able to go whine about being fired and get a few thousand more €, since the reason for firing an employee is almost always judged as "abusive".

I think it's a typical example of modern western democracy, full of social benefits, trade unions and all that shit. It's very easy to abuse such a system ina way that you just extort the money from the companythat fired you.

Jerom wrote:These Moroccan kids tend to go through this 10-15 year long phase in their life where they are absolutely unbearable. Instead of 1 bad apple every 20 kids, theres 4 every 10 or something close to that. In Utrecht, where I live, theres always one school that gets a lot of Moroccan kids. There are so many bad apples that every class is basically out of control. The "white" kids don't want to go to these schools anymore, intensifying the problem. The teachers can't properly teach anymore (one school had kids throwing eggs and other more dangerous things at fucking teachers on a frequent basis) so the grades get worse and worse. In the end the school ceases to exist or solves the problem and makes the Moroccan population go to another school, which faces the seem thing. 4 schools have disappeared in the past, my mother was involved in 3 of those and is trying to save the current Moroccan school from such a fate.

I have had similair experiences in the football league. These teams with a lot of Moroccans where extremely shitty to play against, to the point where my football club moved their competition away from these teams. At the age of 6 I played football games where this other kid would secretly punch me when the referee wasn't looking. SIX FUCKING YEARS OLD. They'd cheat before I literally even know what cheating was. And it never got much better.

Now I'm not saying it's them being Moroccan, or arab, muslim or whatever that's causing the problem. The problem is that the culture they have doesn't match ours and creates extreme friction between the rest of society. The part of "integration" hasn't happened. These are 3rd, 4th or even 5th generation immigrants, and people still tend to refer to them as Moroccans or as "allochtonen" (meaning people from another soil). It's really a serious problem, almost unsolvable.

But hey I'm not PC anymore now XD

Totally agree. Factual, no racist.
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No Flag fightinfrenchman
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28 Apr 2016, 17:02

Europeans are so racist
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29 Apr 2016, 07:33

Integration in the netherlands has failed for all kinds of people from all kinds of cultures. The fact that we still call moroccans allochtoon is because it has become a racist word mostly, used to identify people of different skin colors. Its rarely used to identify white americans or europeans, because theyre physically undistinguishable from dutch people. Its not just the moroccans fault, which you seem to suggest quite much, and thats making your statement pretty discrminating ( true or not)

The reason people havent integrated is because of the multicultural project. In itself, there is nothing wrong with it, people of different cultures can coexist without a problem. However they will never really become one people if you dont get them to see some common ground. Usa binds them to the constitution, which is powerful because it garantuees all their freedom. Holland did no such thing and tried to bind them to the national football team and royal house, which is obviously too trivial and subjective preferential to succeed.
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France iNcog
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29 Apr 2016, 08:17

Do citizens of the USA sexually recognize the constitution?

When I lived there, I didn't think much of it, though I had no trouble integrating. Perhaps that is because both France and the USA have strong views on freedom (hurrdurr, etc.), or something? Perhaps we're just culturally close.

I'm not sure.
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