WHO JUST FUCKING HATES MATHS???

[Goodspeed]

Gibson school isn't about memorizing facts. That's what it feels like but in the end it's brain training. It teaches you how to think and how to learn new things efficiently which is going to be incredibly important no matter what job you end up with. Math in particular teaches you analytical thinking and deductive reasoning more than any other subject and in my opinion those are 2 of the most important things for any child to learn.

You are right in that many subjects in high school are somewhat less useful in teaching you how to think, but in all cases you are learning how to learn and even the subjects that seem completely useless can be important in that students may be influenced by what they learned or saw there in their choice for a higher education or job. An example of this is History classes which is literally memorizing facts. I found this a waste of time since you know, wikipedia, but other students found a passion for the subject which they otherwise may not have.

In any case, math is one of those subjects where this criticism doesn't even apply. Learning the language of logic is vital, it's the basis of every engineering profession and arguably the basis of problem solving itself, and I consider anyone who isn't versed in logic an utter waste of time to talk to. I fear that if people weren't forced to take math in high school there would be a lot more of those people, and perhaps if math curriculum was held to higher standards there would be a lot less. It seems obvious that if math was not a mandatory subject in high school, humanity would be a good amount dumber.

[momuuu]

I think insight in maths is extremely important to apply it to almost anything. Maths are often applied in physics, they are your hammer, the physics decide what to hit and how to hit it. Many basic math skills are crucial to perform at even a mediocre level pf physics, advanced maths is a requirement to understand underlying principles and be aware of physical limitations and assumptions being made in your derivations.

For me math is the tool to get from insight in a situation to a tangible outcome that actually has value. Pure maths to me arent that much fun, just finding out how to solve a differential equation, calculate with matrices or calculate complex integrals is relatively uninteresting to me. Applying these math skills to understand and describe things in physics, economics or even aoe3 quickly makes it extremely interesting to me. Theres a lot of fun in using basic-advanced math skills to create new formulas that describe things, or to discover why formulas are the way they are, at least that is it to me. The actual process of learning maths is something I have never truly enjoyed. Its usually reading to a boring proof of the theorem to then have to plough your way through the mathematical formalism to figure out how and when you can use the specific maths and solve the equations. Once you know that its fortunately not that hard anymore, but getting there is annoying. But once you start applying it it actually becomes fun to have tools at your disposal that can help you analyse situations or cases quantitatively, rather than only qualitatively.

To claim maths are useful is pretty shortsighted. Yes a computer can do the maths for you, but before the maths can be done you have to figure out what maths have to be used. And for you to properly figure that out you have to have a large level of insight in these maths. If you do not aim for a job where you try to do things that havent been done before, if you're aiming for a job where you mindlessly and without insight have to copy things others have done before, then maths arent so useful, but if you want anything more than that in something remotely technical then maths are vital.

[noissance]

Either you have a shitty teacher or you got bad grades. If you failed, learn from your mistakes and stick with it. If all you want is a job, take math only as far as you need. You don't need to understand the entirety of math, just a working knowledge. Just pull through so you wont have to see it for a while. There are however rare exceptions to this hatred of math, such as I. My undergraduate degree and my masters thesis was in applied mathematics, and now im studying engineering.

[Papist]

As someone who has loved and hated math at different points in his life, I can confidently say that the teacher is the most important factor. There are two types of math teachers: ones that explain the logic behind the material so that it makes sense, and those who just tell you to memorize a bunch of formulas for the sole purpose of taking a test a week later. Unfortunately, 90% of math teachers seem to belong to the latter category, meaning people assume brute memorization of made up formulas (if you don't understand how a formula was discovered, it might as well be) is all there is to math. It's a shame really; it can be a fascinating subject if it's taught right.

[noissance]

I had a math teacher who gave out super hard problems from the textbook, and made me turn it in early. He would use the same solution in class lol (literally a picture of my homework sheet) in lecture. Talk about being a lazy teacher; additionally, he also said that everything is established so we just accept things and move on.

[DivineFire]

Depends how many letters are in it.

[deleted_user]

I don't like maths, I've always struggled with it, but to say it is unimportant or meaningless in this current technology world is somewhat ignorant imo. Math is more than memorizing numbers or punching equations into google, it is about understanding the concepts behind the operations, especially calculus, which is literally everyywwherreee in today's world. Understanding the definition of a derivative, not just memorizing rules, is so important. Everything in today's world is constantly changing, derivatives simply lets us measure the rate at which it is changing. Similarly, integrals let us measure the area under a curve. These are basic concepts on paper, but once thoroughly understood, can open up entire new processes of thinking.

It's frustrating because I really struggle with these concepts and in my major, understanding them is even more important since virtually every formula ever was derived using calculus. If you can understand maths, not just memorize but truly understand why and how maths exist, I feel it really does open up a new ability to view equations and problems from an improved perspective.

[Aizamk]

elifents luv maths

[deleted_user0]

Aiz so good at maths he realised that 75f and 75w for 10% gather increase is a bad investment when you (will) have 40 vils on coin

[iNcog]

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[iNcog]

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[momuuu]

I don't like maths, I've always struggled with it, but to say it is unimportant or meaningless in this current technology world is somewhat ignorant imo. Math is more than memorizing numbers or punching equations into google, it is about understanding the concepts behind the operations, especially calculus, which is literally everyywwherreee in today's world. Understanding the definition of a derivative, not just memorizing rules, is so important. Everything in today's world is constantly changing, derivatives simply lets us measure the rate at which it is changing. Similarly, integrals let us measure the area under a curve. These are basic concepts on paper, but once thoroughly understood, can open up entire new processes of thinking.

It's frustrating because I really struggle with these concepts and in my major, understanding them is even more important since virtually every formula ever was derived using calculus. If you can understand maths, not just memorize but truly understand why and how maths exist, I feel it really does open up a new ability to view equations and problems from an improved perspective.

Integration is even more important than derivatives usually to solve formulas with non constant variables. Thats a pity because its also much harder -.-

[Jaeger]

non constant variables

-Jerom 2016

[momuuu]

non constant variables

-Jerom 2016

Hmm I guess I view formulas in terms of constants and constants depending on another one of the constants but they are also all variables to me \o/

When plugging in numbers into formulas doesnt matter anymore the difference between a constant and a variable becomes less clear.

Maybe the correct term would have been a variable constant!?

[Jaeger]

non constant variables

-Jerom 2016

Hmm I guess I view formulas in terms of constants and constants depending on another one of the constants but they are also all variables to me \o/

When plugging in numbers into formulas doesnt matter anymore the difference between a constant and a variable becomes less clear.

Maybe the correct term would have been a variable constant!?

Are you referring to traditional variables (such as time) being constants in some contexts (like if you're integrating with dA where A is independent of time)?

[Jaeger]

Let's see. I remember stuff about Gauss pivots, matrixes aren't too difficult to work with either. Set theory I think I was OK with.

I ended up studying mostly first year material for prep school. I can't remember what math grade I got but I set a record and managed to pass some rather advanced entry exams. Top 300 or something out of 2000-3000 candidates. math was such a fucking hurdle, had to learn about all of this shit which is fucking abstract (english and physics compensated, not going to lie):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change_of_basis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory

And much, much more than that.

Absurd that even knew anything about any of that.

Wait aren't you majoring in engineering? Why are you taking set theory lol?

[momuuu]

If you never plug in any values I think the difference between those becomes really small. Arent they all variables when values havent been plugged in, except for constants like the Gravitational constant? Dont you then have variables that represent a constant value and variables that have a value depending on another variable?

[Jaeger]

If you never plug in any values I think the difference between those becomes really small. Arent they all variables when values havent been plugged in, except for constants like the Gravitational constant? Dont you then have variables that represent a constant value and variables that have a value depending on another variable?

Yeah I guess in physics you would consider G a holy constant but you're right it depends a lot on the context, even the "C" you add after integration is supposed to represent a constant, but it could be thought of as a variable, just as long as it's independent of what you're integrating with respect to. It doesn't even have to be a real number, it could be f(a, b, c,.... (all letters known to man except what youre integrating with respect to))

But I don't see how you could interpret something like "5" as anything else than a constant, or anything else that you set in stone such as "c=5".

[iNcog]

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[IP Man]

Math is good because without it, we would all be stupid. (not training the brain=getting stupidier)

[yemshi]

Math is good because without it, we would all be stupid. (not training the brain=getting stupidier)

That is all true to some extend but I'm fine with not doing it at all.

[gibson]

Math is good because without it, we would all be stupid. (not training the brain=getting stupidier)

that is not in any way true

[Goodspeed]

If you don't think so then reply to my post you lazy bum. You started a discussion, finish it

[gibson]

Gibson school isn't about memorizing facts. That's what it feels like but in the end it's brain training. It teaches you how to think and how to learn new things efficiently which is going to be incredibly important no matter what job you end up with.

Of course school isn't just about memorizing facts, but that's what a lot of it boils down to. Classes that involve almost purely fact memorization are close to completely useless. They don't teach you how to think and they don't teach you how to learn things efficiently. What they do do is teach students how to cram a lot of information into their short term memory very quickly and than forget it all the second the course is over. I guess this might be a useful skill, but is it worth years and years of time?

Math in particular teaches you analytical thinking and deductive reasoning more than any other subject and in my opinion those are 2 of the most important things for any child to learn.

Lets look at exactly what most kids learn in math. First they're generally taught basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. You know how they learn this? Brute memorization. That's all there is to it. Than we move on to much more complex multiplication and division problems. And since it's unreasonable to expect a small child to memorize millions of long division problems, they are taught how to break the problem down into small parts and than apply what they memorized when they were doing simple division. Instead of memorizing that 4949/7=707, they are taught to divide the first two numbers by seven, subtract the difference, divide the difference by 7, and than divide the last two numbers by 7. Than we move on to decimals. Oooo so complected, it's exactly what we learned before but with a dot in it. And negative numbers. Just like we learned before just one number has a minus sign in front of it. And fractions. Now we to divide we just flip one number and than multiply them. And than geometry and algebra. Now we just memorize a bunch of patterns and rules, and learn that letters can be substituted for numbers in a math equation.

This is what most kids learn in 12 years of high school. Basically it all boils down to memorize something and if the question you're trying to solve is too big break it into smaller pieces and use what you memorized. Oh, and by the way, you won't ever actually need to know any of this because you will always have a calculator in your pocket. I can't speak for everyone but from my personal experience, it was all completely useless. I never paid attention or put any effort into it and did just fine. Now I believe I was slightly better than most people at math, but for me it was a waste of time. Even in College, I played on my phone everyday in math class and did fine in both calc 1 and calc 2. Today, I couldn't tell you how to find a derivative if my life depended on it. But what I could do is simply google derivative calculator, plug in the numbers, and get the correct answer. I could be wrong on this, but I just don't believe that the application of brute memorization teaches analytical thinking or deductive reasoning. Now isn't breaking something down into smaller parts and attacking those parts the very definition of analytical thinking? Yea it is, and in a few very specific mathematical scenarios students have memorized how to do so, but put most of them outside one of those scenarios, and they won't have any idea what to do. Because they haven't actually been taught how to think analytically, they've memorized a process.

You are right in that many subjects in high school are somewhat less useful in teaching you how to think, but in all cases you are learning how to learn and even the subjects that seem completely useless can be important in that students may be influenced by what they learned or saw there in their choice for a higher education or job. An example of this is History classes which is literally memorizing facts. I found this a waste of time since you know, wikipedia, but other students found a passion for the subject which they otherwise may not have.

If your justification for taking classes is that you might find a passion for that subject, than everyone should be forced to take every subject, because who knows, they might find a passion for a subject which they otherwise may not have.

In any case, math is one of those subjects where this criticism doesn't even apply. Learning the language of logic is vital, it's the basis of every engineering profession and arguably the basis of problem solving itself, and I consider anyone who isn't versed in logic an utter waste of time to talk to.

Being the son of an engineer, I agree that engineering is one profession in which school is definitely a necessity. Without any sort of basis in mathematics, even a very intelligent person with google will find themselves lost when faced with complex problems.

I fear that if people weren't forced to take math in high school there would be a lot more of those people, and perhaps if math curriculum was held to higher standards there would be a lot less. It seems obvious that if math was not a mandatory subject in high school, humanity would be a good amount dumber.

It doesn't seem obvious to me. As I said above, the application of brute memorization does not teach analytical thinking or deductive reasoning. In fact, I think it does the opposite. In basic mathematics, there is no such thing as thinking outside the box. 1+1 is always 2 ( yes, I know depending on the context you can argue that in some places they might not, but that's not relevant to the 1st graders who are learning basic addition). 4949/7 is always 707. For 2a+3=8, a always equals 2.5. The Circumference of a circle is always pie times the diameter( I think lol, I don't really remember). What they're taught is that if they study hard enough and memorize enough, they'll do well. Memorization is not learning. They aren't taught to analyze problems, but rather to apply one or two "rules" and in their math book every single problem can be solved by application of said rules. I don't think we can really know for sure, but I think that people could learn everything useful from school in a year or two. I mean 5 year olds can be taught calculus, so why is it that in most schools they don't learn anything harder than 10+10?

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/ar ... us/284124/

[Goodspeed]

Could it be you expect too much from people? 1 + 1 = 2 that's where you start, how else is x² - 5 = -6 going to make sense? You may have learned more quickly than most, but there isn't enough teaching manpower to give you the attention you apparently deserved. Not all students are as gifted as that, and as a society we need to make sure everyone keeps up with our primary education curriculum. Higher education is a different environment, you'll be challenged there.

There are certainly problems in math curriculum and the way that things are taught in general, but you can't expect it to be perfect and catered to your own needs. We do in the NL have 3 tiers in high school, I think that helps but it has issues of its own. Perhaps you were just in the wrong school or in the wrong part of the world, but in any case to call school in general a waste of time seems over the top. However inefficiently, you are learning a lot there.

The major issue I see going on in primary education atm is the score-driven teaching, it's understandable but destructive. Test scores are a cheap way to measure schools' and students' performance but the tests are garbage. In the end they decide the curriculum and they would look very different if it were up to me.