Fairness of matchups

Mimsy for President · Post by **Mimsy for President** » 04 Jul 2015, 11:29

@divinemoon
Very interessant although I'm not a big fan of quotas. There a lot of good players who can pretend to play in A league. Thus elo/pr should be the only criterion, not the availability of spots

jsimons1289 · Post by **jsimons1289** » 04 Jul 2015, 11:30

divinemoon wrote:First of all jsimons1289, lower rated players don''t want an "advantage", neither are they here ''cuz they "get kicked" from most games they join, there are TONS of low rated players games, i''d think they''re here ''cuz they feel they want to be &' are a part of a "community".. sheesh .......why else would they join? unless some nub thinks they''re gonna win the 1k

A communitys supposed to be one with higher &' lower rated players, where people play for fun, converse &' help each other out...

So you don''t want an advantage, you just want to play? You can play in this tournament. So I''m confused what point you''re trying to make?

A community is made up of higher and lower players, I agree. That''s why all players can join the tournament. Some tournaments don''t let low players in - for the very reason that they''re low. An incentive to practice and get better I guess.

I didn''t question why lower players are on these forums or part of this community, as your post implies. It''s great to have lots of people here. I''m just genuinely confused what you''re trying to achieve by switching up the format.

As you mention, you''re not going to win the tournament. There are 50% of people that have to lose their first round matches - whether it''s pr 10 vs pr 10 or pr 10 vs pr 40. And if you start playing lower players together, then you''ve just told me there are ''tons'' of opportunities to do this anyway. So it''s not that you''re struggling for games. I''m just confused with what the idea is.

I''m not going to win the tournament, but I play for a bit of fun. For some scheduled games. To test myself against better players, and see if I can cause an upset. I don''t care who I play first round.

As for your league idea, in practice this is likely to take too long, and definitely gives an advantage to lower players. You''ll lose half of the better players for lower players (even if it''s half from the mid tier), and then the lower players will still be playing higher players and again lose in their first matches.

Again, and I''ve had so many discussions over the years, is to come up with a smaller tourney, smaller prize pot, where anyone could win. The fun rules idea is what the old (agesanc?) invitational tournaments used to be.

divine_moon · Post by **divine_moon** » 04 Jul 2015, 11:31

shaolinstar wrote:@divinemoon
Very interessant although I''m not a big fan of quotas. There a lot of good players who can pretend to play in A league. Thus elo/pr should be the only criterion, not the availability of spots

ok teddy bear :7upspot:
i''m gearing up for facing my losses over this weekend :whistling:

divine_moon · Post by **divine_moon** » 04 Jul 2015, 15:27

Just lost my matches, ofc the other guy was better, but it was always a pointless task trying, have there been any upsets? will there be any in this round? i doubt..

u guys should possibly have a PR cap @ some high rank, it's really pointless playing such matchups.....

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 04 Jul 2015, 15:29

divinemoon wrote:Just lost my matches, ofc the other guy was better, but it was always a pointless task trying, have there been any upsets? will there be any in this round? i doubt..

u guys should possibly have a PR cap @ some high rank, it''s really pointless playing such matchups.....

What would this gap be? If it is 10, a pr30 who should pass 2 rounds will loose vs blackstar in 1st round and if it is more than 10, the guy can''t win lol.

divine_moon · Post by **divine_moon** » 04 Jul 2015, 15:37

diarouga wrote:
divinemoon wrote:Just lost my matches, ofc the other guy was better, but it was always a pointless task trying, have there been any upsets? will there be any in this round? i doubt..

u guys should possibly have a PR cap @ some high rank, its really pointless playing such matchups.....
What would this gap be? If it is 10, a pr30 who should pass 2 rounds will loose vs blackstar in 1st round and if it is more than 10, the guy cant win lol.

i believe u dont understand what i say?

i meant u guys should possibly make 1st lt &' above only.... now do u get it?
have a 128 people round instead of 256, pointless playing 128 noobs aint it?

asking a sgt to play a lt. col for the first matchup.. :w00t: its totally pointless...

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 04 Jul 2015, 15:43

divinemoon wrote:
diarouga wrote:What would this gap be? If it is 10, a pr30 who should pass 2 rounds will loose vs blackstar in 1st round and if it is more than 10, the guy cant win lol.
i believe u dont understand what i say?

i meant u guys should possibly make 1st lt &' above only.... now do u get it?
have a 128 people round instead of 256, pointless playing 128 noobs aint it?

asking a sgt to play a lt. col for the first matchup.. :w00t: its totally pointless...

Meh,
It is a tournament for high level players, to see whos the best.
We allow noobs to play because some may want to learn from good players, if youre sgt and come to win a high level tournament, theres a problem.
Anyway, I was against letting pr25- playing because it is a waste of time because of unfair MUs.

divine_moon · Post by **divine_moon** » 04 Jul 2015, 15:48

diarouga wrote:
divinemoon wrote:i believe u dont understand what i say?

i meant u guys should possibly make 1st lt &' above only.... now do u get it?
have a 128 people round instead of 256, pointless playing 128 noobs aint it?

asking a sgt to play a lt. col for the first matchup.. :w00t: its totally pointless...
Meh,
It is a tournament for high level players, to see whos the best.
We allow noobs to play because some may want to learn from good players, if youre sgt and come to win a high level tournament, theres a problem.
Anyway, I was against letting pr25- playing because it is a waste of time because of unfair MUs.

not win dia, but i certainly dont want to get trolled ingame, yea u should possibly cap it @ PR 25+

a word of advice, noobs who get bashed/ trolled, dont really learn anything.... its just irritating....for both parties (im guessing, ofc some pros may enjoy bashing dunno :whistling:)

have u noticed ure up against a guy with 9 matches? 9!

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 04 Jul 2015, 15:59

divinemoon wrote:
diarouga wrote:Meh,
It is a tournament for high level players, to see whos the best.
We allow noobs to play because some may want to learn from good players, if youre sgt and come to win a high level tournament, theres a problem.
Anyway, I was against letting pr25- playing because it is a waste of time because of unfair MUs.
not win dia, but i certainly dont want to get trolled ingame, yea u should possibly cap it @ PR 25+

a word of advice, noobs who get bashed/ trolled, dont really learn anything.... its just irritating....for both parties (im guessing, ofc some pros may enjoy bashing dunno :whistling:)

have u noticed ure up against a guy with 9 matches? 9!

Yeah, youre right, I was planning to CDB rush, thats no cool at all indeed.
Anyway, discriminating good players is definitely not the good way.
The easiest way is to allow only pr25+, some other ways are to make qualifications for pr 30-

divine_moon · Post by **divine_moon** » 04 Jul 2015, 16:21

diarouga wrote:
divinemoon wrote:not win dia, but i certainly dont want to get trolled ingame, yea u should possibly cap it @ PR 25+

a word of advice, noobs who get bashed/ trolled, dont really learn anything.... its just irritating....for both parties (im guessing, ofc some pros may enjoy bashing dunno :whistling:)

have u noticed ure up against a guy with 9 matches? 9!
Yeah, youre right, I was planning to CDB rush, thats no cool at all indeed.
Anyway, discriminating good players is definitely not the good way.
The easiest way is to allow only pr25+, some other ways are to make qualifications for pr 30-

theres NO discrimination agaisnt "good players" dia, u seem to not understand, its obviously pointless playing so much lower rated players, or maybe u dont agree with me? u like to noob bash ? :angryapple:

anyway its a pointless discussion dia, next time maybe a min PR Cap or 1st LT+ should be set to ensure better matchup?

anyways, not gonna waste time on this, out.... :clint:

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 04 Jul 2015, 16:23

divinemoon wrote:
diarouga wrote:Yeah, youre right, I was planning to CDB rush, thats no cool at all indeed.
Anyway, discriminating good players is definitely not the good way.
The easiest way is to allow only pr25+, some other ways are to make qualifications for pr 30-
theres NO discrimination agaisnt "good players" dia, u seem to not understand, its obviously pointless playing so much lower rated players, or maybe u dont agree with me? u like to noob bash ? :angryapple:

anyway its a pointless discussion dia, next time maybe a min PR Cap or 1st LT+ should be set to ensure better matchup?

anyways, not gonna waste time on this, out.... :clint:

I dont like noob bashing. If you put a captain vs a top player then it is unfair for the captain isnt it?

divine_moon · Post by **divine_moon** » 04 Jul 2015, 16:31

diarouga wrote:
divinemoon wrote:theres NO discrimination agaisnt "good players" dia, u seem to not understand, its obviously pointless playing so much lower rated players, or maybe u dont agree with me? u like to noob bash ? :angryapple:

anyway its a pointless discussion dia, next time maybe a min PR Cap or 1st LT+ should be set to ensure better matchup?

anyways, not gonna waste time on this, out.... :clint:
I dont like noob bashing. If you put a captain vs a top player then it is unfair for the captain isnt it?

WHICH PART OF WHAT I SUGGESTED DO U NOT UNDERSTAND?

first of all a capt. isnt a low rank
next i said make a MINIMUM PR CAP, where u dont allow people below 1st LT( for all i care even Capt. is fine)

&' if ure a capt. &' get pitted against a guy whos Lt.Col, its ok ure already good ...

Capt. vs Lt. Col is always having better odds of an upset than , sarg. vs Lt.Col. or maybe u disagree with me??

this round has become "noob bash 128 guys" round... vary sadly. losing interest in the community more now...

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 04 Jul 2015, 16:48

divinemoon wrote:
diarouga wrote:I dont like noob bashing. If you put a captain vs a top player then it is unfair for the captain isnt it?
WHICH PART OF WHAT I SUGGESTED DO U NOT UNDERSTAND?

first of all a capt. isnt a low rank
next i said make a MINIMUM PR CAP, where u dont allow people below 1st LT( for all i care even Capt. is fine)

&' if ure a capt. &' get pitted against a guy whos Lt.Col, its ok ure already good ...

Capt. vs Lt. Col is always having better odds of an upset than , sarg. vs Lt.Col. or maybe u disagree with me??

this round has become "noob bash 128 guys" round... vary sadly. losing interest in the community more now...

Capt isnt high neither.
People wont change their mind so it is totally useless to talk about it.

momuuu · Post by **momuuu** » 04 Jul 2015, 18:47

jsimons1289 wrote:
divinemoon wrote:First of all jsimons1289, lower rated players dont want an "advantage", neither are they here cuz they "get kicked" from most games they join, there are TONS of low rated players games, id think theyre here cuz they feel they want to be & are a part of a "community".. sheesh .......why else would they join? unless some nub thinks theyre gonna win the 1k

A communitys supposed to be one with higher & lower rated players, where people play for fun, converse & help each other out...
As you mention, youre not going to win the tournament. There are 50% of people that have to lose their first round matches - whether its pr 10 vs pr 10 or pr 10 vs pr 40. And if you start playing lower players together, then youve just told me there are tons of opportunities to do this anyway. So its not that youre struggling for games. Im just confused with what the idea is.

This is the problem. You do not seem to understand that it really matters wether its pr 10 vs pr 10 or pr 10 vs pr 40. Obviously the first one is challenging, fun and exciting for both players while the second one is boring and useless for both players (but maybe you like noobbashing).

What really pisses me off is that people like you do not even want to discuss or come up with other formats. You seemingly just want your nice seed to be secure and dont care about the majority of players that play in this tournement to participate.

Or are you going to tell me that samwise vs a pr7 is something that we want to happen?

Eventually you will lose yes, but its so much more fun to get bashed in a series where you had something like a chance to take a game. Right now many matches are just pathetic stomps, where the only suggestion of a real game is created by the good player holding back a little bit.

Yes maybe its impossible to prevent matches like this from happening, but there surely are better options than making all the games sad chanceless stomps. The thing that frustrates me the most is maybe the fact that you dont even try to imagine what it is like for the lower ranked players.

It really openend my eyes when I learned that my opponent didnt even want to play her games because she felt like she didnt even have a chance, and Im not even close to the real pros.

And it isnt relevant if things are fair or not. You are looking for a tournement that is as much fun for as many people as possible. Right now the tournement is fun for the good players, and its fun that we are likely to get the optimal quarter/semi finals. But it is no fun in any way for a majority of the players, because they are simply getting noobbashed really hard. And this isnt random bad luck, the format is just screwing the lower ranked players up, on purpose.

Mimsy for President · Post by **Mimsy for President** » 04 Jul 2015, 18:59

YES ! this seed system is absolutely unfair. Apart from my confrontation and MusketJr's one, there've only been unilateral outcomes so far.
Perhaps we should create leagues or as _H2O suggested, qualifying series (which is even better imo).
Moreover, the staff should consult "informers" (anonym or not). It doesn't sound very noble at first sight but their job is essential because they will assess each participant. It works like a last filter against elo sorting's defect (Eurofighter1997, beanoob and - to a lesser extent - I slipped through the net). Forcing the "suspicious" people to play vs. an informer to confirm the registration sounds good too. At least there will be no big surprise.

iNcog · Post by **iNcog** » 04 Jul 2015, 19:06

the fact that ASC gives a lot of very hard and unfair (// pointless) match ups in the ro128 is something which is under close scrutiny by me

i'm looking into that

jsimons1289 · Post by **jsimons1289** » 04 Jul 2015, 19:45

Jerom - happy to have a debate on this, but don't have selective memory when replying to my posts. I've suggested ways, and reminded you THREE times, that you can come up with some other rules for a tournament to make it fun.

Durokan · Post by **Durokan** » 04 Jul 2015, 22:10

incog wrote:the fact that ASC gives a lot of very hard and unfair (// pointless) match ups in the ro128 is something which is under close scrutiny by me

i''m looking into that

i could draw up a bracket when i get home tomorrow to see what i think could work would look like. It would basically be a system where the top X players get a bye for Y rounds in order to decrease the average skill level of the earlier brackets. This would give the lower level players Y rounds to have better games before being pitted against the better players. It would still be a seeded format, and the tournament would just start a week or two earlier for the players without byes. This does have the problem of having some amount of bashing once the players with a bye are introduced into the bracket, but it will be to a lesser extent. The number of byes would be a number close to 60 or so players according to my spontaneous thoughts.

Example bracket with quick thoughts, players 1-64 get a bye, players 65-129 play against 194-130. The winners of this first round are placed against their opponent from the bye group based on seed.(obviously this was just an initial thought, but it may be an improvement.)

Side note: i dont have any strong opinions, i played my matchup and had a close first game then was bashed the second game by a pr 30+ player, and was fine with it.

princeofkabul · Post by **princeofkabul** » 04 Jul 2015, 23:28

If the lower players ain't happy about seeding system in competive tournament they might aswell just leave.

divine_moon · Post by **divine_moon** » 05 Jul 2015, 02:22

princeofkabul wrote:If the lower players ain''t happy about seeding system in competive tournament they might aswell just leave.

it WILL happen mate, &' lots of noobs WILL lose interest in the forums, especially if they get bashed very badly..... :clint:

deleted_user0 · Post by **deleted_user0** » 05 Jul 2015, 06:00

divinemoon wrote:
diarouga wrote:I dont like noob bashing. If you put a captain vs a top player then it is unfair for the captain isnt it?
WHICH PART OF WHAT I SUGGESTED DO U NOT UNDERSTAND?

first of all a capt. isnt a low rank
next i said make a MINIMUM PR CAP, where u dont allow people below 1st LT( for all i care even Capt. is fine)

& if ure a capt. & get pitted against a guy whos Lt.Col, its ok ure already good ...

Capt. vs Lt. Col is always having better odds of an upset than , sarg. vs Lt.Col. or maybe u disagree with me??

this round has become "noob bash 128 guys" round... vary sadly. losing interest in the community more now...

Its already been stated several times that the staff is looking into a way to make it more competitive for everyone. So dont lose heart

deleted_user0 · Post by **deleted_user0** » 05 Jul 2015, 06:02

divinemoon wrote:
princeofkabul wrote:If the lower players aint happy about seeding system in competive tournament they might aswell just leave.
it WILL happen mate, & lots of noobs WILL lose interest in the forums, especially if they get bashed very badly.....? :clint:

Thats due to a poor mindset then. Cant blame others for that.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 05 Jul 2015, 06:31

umeu wrote:
divinemoon wrote:it WILL happen mate, &' lots of noobs WILL lose interest in the forums, especially if they get bashed very badly..... :clint:

Thats due to a poor mindset then. Cant blame others for that.

Will you play in the winter tournament?

Mimsy for President · Post by **Mimsy for President** » 05 Jul 2015, 06:38

Let's not be selfish and elitist (? meritocratic).We are ALL here to have a good time like a real fellowship. Plus the current "lower players" are potentially the next top players. We've all been "low" once :heart:

deleted_user0 · Post by **deleted_user0** » 05 Jul 2015, 06:59

you wont get top if you dont play better players, and if you give up after being bashed. that said, i perfectly understand that fun is something else, and for those who want to play the tournament for fun, another setup would be nicer. The staff has said multiple times they are looking into a way to facilitate that. so this discussion is kinda pointless by now.

@diarouga: I dont know if i will, depends on how busy i will be with work.

ESOC

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