New Maps! New EP!

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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by sebnan12 »

if the sign up list is up to date this is going to be the best esoc tourney on paper ever, having players such as h2o samwise raphael kaiserklein prince mitoe etc. only missing aiz and bsop :(
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by EAGLEMUT »

nuuuuuuu, not the salamanders!
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momuuu wrote: ↑theres no way eaglemut is truly a top player
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

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Post by musketeer925 »

@Rikikipu

would it be possible to do something like modify the obstruction radius of the salamanders in the proto.xml to make their click radius bigger? Not sure what precisely determines the click radius of an object. If it is related to the model itself, maybe it'd be possible to add a larger invisible attachment to the unit.
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by Rikikipu »

@lordraphael I forgot to answer about the starting herdable hunt. After play-testing it, we agreed with kynesie to make the starting hunt not herdable because it was too hard for Japan to place the big Toshogu shrine. The area around the TC is really small, and if you make the hunt moving, it can go behind the cliff, and that can become really awkward to manage it after that.
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by Cometk »

https://imgur.com/a/Ofmg8

i think the spawns on wadmalaw 2v2 needs some attention, and the also 3v3 which kinda bones the middle player who has to walk a very long time to get his second hunt. i think making an opening of the cliff at this position (last image) could be a solution
Image
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

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Post by zoom »

Hazza54321 wrote:
zoom wrote:
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While true, you exemplify, so expertly, your idea of "constructive criticism" – flawed logic, lies and personal attacks – that EP is frequently faced with. I'm sure you can see how it makes for a more difficult dialogue.

i have provided constructive critism many times but you and gs disregard and dont even bother listening because youre both deluded thinking that your changes are flawless
I'm glad you responded. I assure you that we in general, and Goodspeed in particular, listen to criticism more than you may realize. I'm definitely not happy that you feel as though we aren't listening to constructive criticism. Please be advised that by no means do I think that the changes in the patch are flawless. Frankly, I don't think anyone does. We do think it's a step in the right direction, overall, however. The entire process is a matter of compromise and trying as well as one can. This release came about on an unusually tight schedule, which limits possibilities further – especially with regards to community input.
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by zoom »

Rikikipu wrote:@lordraphael I forgot to answer about the starting herdable hunt. After play-testing it, we agreed with kynesie to make the starting hunt not herdable because it was too hard for Japan to place the big Toshogu shrine. The area around the TC is really small, and if you make the hunt moving, it can go behind the cliff, and that can become really awkward to manage it after that.
I don't think you understand how ESOC operates.
:flowers:
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by zoom »

P i k i l i c wrote:
zoom wrote:
P i k i l i c wrote:Thanks to all for the insane amount of work. Unfortunately I really dislike the balance changes for pretty obvious reasons many people exposed before me. I'm still wondering if I will update the patch because I would like to try the nice new maps and maybe I could play games with civs/strategies which will not be modified by these changes.
Did you try reading the explanations found in the OP?
Of course I did. And I would like to agree, it would be easier for me to agree with the people who worked hard for the patch. But these changes are against he original spirit of the patch imho, it goes too far away from the game I love. Sorry to disagree ! :flowers:
Don't worry about disagreeing. I'm only interested in some specifics, though. What in particular do you think is bad, and why? I might have something to say about some of it.
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by IamSherlocked »

zoom wrote:I'm glad you responded. I assure you that we in general, and Goodspeed in particular, listen to criticism more than you may realize. I'm definitely not happy that you feel as though we aren't listening to constructive criticism. Please be advised that by no means do I think that the changes in the patch are flawless. Frankly, I don't think anyone does. We do think it's a step in the right direction, overall, however. The entire process is a matter of compromise and trying as well as one can. This release came about on an unusually tight schedule, which limits possibilities further – especially with regards to community input.



Dang I love this man!
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by kami_ryu »

I just read the patch notes.

They're pretty tame. Some changes are big obviously, but it'd be interesting to see where they lead to.

Solid notes, imo. now to actually play games and see where stuff goes.
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by momuuu »

I think the changes are actually pretty wild since they do more than just balancing the game; they change the way the game is played.
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

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Post by momuuu »

zoom wrote:
Jerom wrote:Join me in not updating to 4.0!
Because of a 10hp Sepoy Nerf?

#damm

One would hope that a balance team member would understand the vast implications of the change and at least that it's a reason to dislike the patch.

That being said, I'm not sure I think any change made in this patch is good. Crazy speed wakinas seem silly, the german nerf was very unpopular and just doesn't adress the actual problem but tries to sorta patch it up fucking other stuff up in the process, sepoy change is just EleGiggle, nerfing jans because some people have been vocal about disliking jans rather than for actual balance reasons, a weird spain change that just makes it an entirely new civ (I thought ep wasn't doing design changes) and no changes to british.
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

The changes don't follow the original philosophy or not changing the core of civilizations, and instead focusing on changing small aspects of the game to improve playing experience. Along with ESOC maps, this is the reason I've always been excited about EP. I can't say much about the specific changes since I haven't played since the last patch, but the fact that the original philosophy is slowly fading does sadden me, as radical changes will only separate the player base even further, and we're a long time off from any official patch update.
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by momuuu »

Especially if you consider that apperantly at about 66% of people doesn't agree with the sepoy change. If one were to claim its actually a balance change, then maybe that approval rating is okay, but only 33% of people supporting a design change seems ludicrous. In my opinion design changes should be done with care and after thoroughly consulting the community.
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

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Post by P i k i l i c »

zoom wrote:
P i k i l i c wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Of course I did. And I would like to agree, it would be easier for me to agree with the people who worked hard for the patch. But these changes are against he original spirit of the patch imho, it goes too far away from the game I love. Sorry to disagree ! :flowers:
Don't worry about disagreeing. I'm only interested in some specifics, though. What in particular do you think is bad, and why? I might have something to say about some of it.
Ok, well some people described the problems better than - and before - me, but let's go:
"General" changes are not explained in the newspost. What are they?
- Town Center cost decreased to 500w (down from 600w). Was this ever felt as a need?
- Culverin multiplier against warships increased to 12.5 (up from 10) Yes warships are strong but were culverins the problem? There are some changes i dont really disagree with, but that are just... useless tbh?
- Fishing Boat cost decreased to 70w (down from 100w)
- "Schooners" shipment effect changed from "-60% Fishing Boat cost" to "-20w Fishing Boat cost and -20% train time" (decreases train points from 25 to 20)
no opinion - a big change, seems risky but we will see
- Canoe range & line-of-sight decreased from 20 and 24 to 18 and 22 respectively
- War Canoe range & line-of-sight decreased from 30 and 34 to 25 and 29 respectively
What, TWC civs were the strongest on water ? I never heard canoes were OP so far, and canoe shipments are bad anyway (while caravel shipments are very good)
- "European Cannons" shipment effect changed from "+20% warship attack and +5 warship range & line-of-sight" to "+30% warship attack"
- "Offshore Support" shipment effect changed from "+20% warship attack and +5 warship range & line-of-sight" to "+20% warship attack and +2 warship range & line-of-sight"
Certainly good changes, warship range were easily abused
- "Admiralty" shipment effect changed from increased warship build limit to "Dock warship improvements cost & train points halved" Why? you may answer "why not?" well it seems like another unnecessary change.

Ok how are civs changed now?

Chinese
- "Old Han Reforms" shipment cost removed
Still needs to be tested but it may be the solution

Germans
Germans are currently considered one of the strongest civs. We still see an unhealthy reliance on Uhlans in German play. Because we feel that the initial HP nerf is the right direction, we decreased their HP back to 180. Because this turned out to be a slight overnerf the last time we did it, compensation has been added in the form of a doppelsoldner buff. With this, we hope to encourage more build order variety as well as more variety in the German army.

- Uhlan hit points decreased to 180 (down from 185)
- Doppelsoldner hit points increased to 240 (up from 230)
Here we go. This changes the way the game is played. It is nice and normal to see mainly uhlans in the German army, it is in the DNA of the civ. The uhlan is not even OP by itself, but a semi FF meta makes Germany strong.

Indians
We noticed that Indians seem to rely heavily on the early strength of the Sepoy. Whenever they don’t, in most match ups they find themselves coming up slightly short. Because we feel that India already has good versatility, a general buff seems the best way to change them. In line with existing civ design, their house cost has been decreased. Because this is a buff to Sepoy-based builds as well and Sepoy are already dominant, we decreased their HP.

- Sepoy hit points decreased to 180 (down from 190).
- House: Cost decreased to 50w (down from 80w). Hit points decreased to 800 (down from 1200)
Well the fact sepoys were 3-hit by a TC made them more unique. It is not like sepoy aggression is scary on the patch since most of the maps have many hunts. Anyway better players than me have pointed out with many details why this change is worrying.

Ottomans
Otto continues to be a challenge to balance. For this civ, we want to make sure that they have more options than all out aggression.
Mosque cost has been reverted back to 100w and we kept the higher XP income because it means that Otto will be able to consistently send 3v and Silk Road without having to wait for the first colonial shipment. Because this is a buff to all of their build orders including the early pressure builds, Janissary HP is nerfed. Their cost has also been decreased which means they will be just as cost-effective, but pressure builds with Janissaries will be weaker in the early game because Janissary shipments are indirectly nerfed and you can still only make 5 at a time from the barracks.
To keep the option for early pressure intact, no changes have been made to the speed of Otto’s build order.

- Mosque cost reverted to 100w (down from 150w)
- Janissary hit points decreased to 210 (down from 235)
- Janissary cost decreased to 90f-25c (down from 100f-25c)
NR 10 patch? :hmm:

Sioux
We believe Sioux may already be in a good place balance-wise, or close to it, so we have opted for small changes which are largely quality of life improvements and will hopefully encourage players to try the civ. Both changes are in line with previous ones, where we have also opted to increase the speed of their infantry and encourage the use of their unique building.

- Teepee aura range (attack, hit points and gather rate) increased to 24 (up from 18)
- Wakina Rifle speed increased to 5 (up from 4)
Idk about he teepee aura. Maybe this is an excellent change. Why buff the wakina tho? They were fine. I hope you don't make a unit OP just because you want people to "try the civ"

Spanish
When we see Spanish in high level games, which is rarely, they still seem to rely on early fortress aggression. In order to give them more economic options we have (along with the TC cost buff) decided to add a new unique shipment with a clear focus on long-term play. Spanish early fortress aggression is unchanged, and therefore still an option.

- "Spanish Gold" shipment effect replaced with: "Grants 400 coin with every shipment starting with this one." Availability changed from Industrial to Fortress Age.
This seems completely random and not in the spirit of previous patches. Why should every civ have an economic option?

In summary, I'd say NE and WoL are definitely cool mods, but this is not what I expect from the ESOC Patch. Some changes may seem refreshing and original but actually it ends up to differ too much from AoE3 imo. Some are just unnecessary.
Also, even though the goal of this patch was not to nerf early aggression , it does encourage economic play more than ever. I think that this is worrying and will lead to more boring games.
Consider not the one who speaks the truth, but the truth that is said

:hmm: AoE logic :hmm:
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

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Post by sebnan12 »

something no one said yet: i like the new patch and i liked the old one aswell. thx for the work and effort u put in. pls dont lose faith in this community because there are people around appreciate ur work!
ps: counts for the mapteam aswell
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by Hazza54321 »

sebnan12 wrote:something no one said yet: i like the new patch and i liked the old one aswell. thx for the work and effort u put in. pls dont lose faith in this community because there are people around appreciate ur work!
ps: counts for the mapteam aswell

you need to change ur eso name if you say that
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by Aykin Haraka »

Aykin Haraka wrote:
Aykin Haraka wrote:
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I love you
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by Asateo »

Aykin Haraka wrote:
Aykin Haraka wrote:
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I love you


Narcisism? :huh:
To see a world in a grain of saind, A heaven in a wild flower
Hold infinity in the palm of you hand, And eternity in an hour
- William Blake, Auguries of Innocence
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by Aykin Haraka »

WTF what hapenned lol I can't delete xD sorry guys
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by Aykin Haraka »

Asateo wrote:
Aykin Haraka wrote:
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I love you


Narcisism? :huh:


no I agree with
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by sebnan12 »

Hazza54321 wrote:
sebnan12 wrote:something no one said yet: i like the new patch and i liked the old one aswell. thx for the work and effort u put in. pls dont lose faith in this community because there are people around appreciate ur work!
ps: counts for the mapteam aswell

you need to change ur eso name if you say that

which of the 30?
"Why are you trying to lecture me on my own language, no wonder you people shit in the open street."- Riotcoke

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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by Rikikipu »

Cometk wrote:https://imgur.com/a/Ofmg8

i think the spawns on wadmalaw 2v2 needs some attention, and the also 3v3 which kinda bones the middle player who has to walk a very long time to get his second hunt. i think making an opening of the cliff at this position (last image) could be a solution

Asymetrical maps are always more difficult to adapt for team games, and in case of Wadmalaw I struggled even harder since there isn't a lot of space for players in the cliffs. That's why I let the map out the team set for now. Good idea with a middle opening for the middle player in 3V3. I'll try to also fix the 2v2 issue.
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by zoom »

I just noticed Manchuria spawned with a starting gold mine. Did it always, and is this intentional??
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Re: New Maps! New EP!

Post by Garja »

Manchuria is slightly bigger and new possible mine layouts have been added
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