This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

[chris1089]

Ideally I would just get the same rating on my actual account. The best way to avoid getting caught up in admin decisions is to follow the rules! :)

What about elo farming off kickass? Seems he gave you 10 games in a row.

[Hazza54321]

So would i be able to sign up on the general or would thaf be too intimidating

[Kaiserklein]

Hazza signing up for a 1v1 tourney is anything but intimidating

[deleted_user0]

So would i be able to sign up on the general or would thaf be too intimidating

The real question is, on which account should lukas sign up? Lukass_L99, markus_heining or jayp22?

I'm signing up on adriancarrot fo sho

[Hazza54321]

Hazza signing up for a 1v1 tourney is anything but intimidating

Yes but the general meanwhile

[Hazza54321]

So would i be able to sign up on the general or would thaf be too intimidating

The real question is, on which account should lukas sign up? Lukass_L99, markus_heining or jayp22?

I'm signing up on adriancarrot fo sho

Its quite funny how esoc knows you by two accounts when theres at least 5 we all know is you but you claim otherwise

[deleted_user0]

So would i be able to sign up on the general or would thaf be too intimidating

The real question is, on which account should lukas sign up? Lukass_L99, markus_heining or jayp22?

I'm signing up on adriancarrot fo sho

Its quite funny how esoc knows you by two accounts when theres at least 5 we all know is you but you claim otherwise

which ones? i don't deny any account that is mine lol. you just can't accept you're wrong.

[Hazza54321]

Donaldtrump, hadrianus, hokedog, dutchlucifer Kappa, and those are off the top of my head

[deleted_user0]

Donaldtrump, hadrianus, hokedog, dutchlucifer Kappa, and those are off the top of my head

rofl... try again!

[momuuu]

How much elo are you gaining playing 10 games with the same person, both at 1600? Soon you will be 1700 and he will be 1500. At that point you gain like 2 points per game. GL advancing with that, especially when losing just 1 games put you back by 20 points.
It is possible to rank up or down, because the system is still fresh, but to do that you need to play vs somewhat decent player and whose elo is close to your objective. E.g. to be 1750 you need to play with 1650 and up only and then 1700+ only. This is because you will inevitably lose some games. If you play vs a 1600 player you need 100 games, assuming all wins. And it can easily be seen as point trading anyway.

I checked, a 100 point difference gives about 10 elo. A 150 point difference still gives 5 elo. This means it'd only be ~20-25 games to get to the top20 elo right now. And its not even cheating or anything that could be marked as such, its just nitpicking your opponents wisely and maybe making some deals with friends. For example, I could just pick some guys I know that are much worse than me and still hover around 1600 elo (because too few games on ep have been played) which are 25 garantueed wins. On jp elo that would never get you to 2300+ as the difference between those people and your 2000+ elo means you get 1 point per game - thus youd have to bash for 300+ games. But for this elo, its very possible. I think I could name ten people that would be at around 1600 elo still and would be willing to play me rated for a few games if I tried my best to convince them. Thats enough to be a 'legitemate' top 10 elo.

Imo its a better measure to take all games in consideration, not just ep only. A big volume of games is more important than balanced games.

@Mr_Bramboy as described above, due to the fact that currently the volume of games played on ep is way too low, one can trick the system without actually point trading or cheating, but by simply cleverly noobbashing for a few games.

[Garja]

Ok, well if you think it is that easy do it. To me current rankings are fairly accurate and I assume for a reason. Sure going up and down is vey posible but not to the point I would call it exploitable. I'd say if you rank up to top 20 is because you belong there, not because you gamed the system.

[momuuu]

But you can definitely game the system right now. Especially if you have enough friends for it that might be willing to throw you a bone. Im not as active as I used to be but there were times were I kept in touch with a bunch of ms-1st lt players that I couldve played rated. At least 15 of those I think. Thatd have carried me a long way to the top, especially if you dodge all other games.

[Garja]

Which bring to the point of: is it worth the effort? I mean, if you only play ms-1lt that's noob bashing. If you do too many games with same person it is point trading. If you play too few games you will break a very likely rule of minimum games played. In order to avoid all these things you have to put lot of effort to the point that you aren't gaming the system anymore, but rather the opposite. And still if you somehow manage to get a significatively undeserved seed you're going out soon anyway, so not that much of a problem.

[momuuu]

Mind you its only ~25 games and repeatedly playing the same person is not point trading at all. Rn if Id play 25 games chances are 15 are with jesus3/brookg because those are my best aoe mates. Would I be disqualified for point trading if I won all 15 of those?

[Garja]

I don't think that would be worth a dq but very likely would change your seed.
Then again this is all easier said that done. I don't see anyone being in top 20 by playing only people around 1600. There is a reason if top10 was 1700, then 1750 and now is 1800.

[momuuu]

I don't think that would be worth a dq but very likely would change your seed.
Then again this is all easier said that done. I don't see anyone being in top 20 by playing only people around 1600. There is a reason if top10 was 1700, then 1750 and now is 1800.

Its because people atm dont nitpick opponents since esoc elo has been meaningless. But nitpicking your opponents is a real abuse of the system because half of the playerbase is vastly overrated compared to the top players. Dont dismiss this, its a glaring problem with the system.

[Garja]

The main reason is simply because the more the system is filled with games the more accurate it gets. And now that there is a 200
score gap players are already nitpicking enough to not lose too much rank to those who are rated low, despite being worth more. This is also why it's not as easy as before to rank up quickly.
Of course there is not like a barrier that prevents you from getting in top 50, if you are actually worth that. And this is good for the game but not exactly exploitable.

[deleted_user0]

lol these 2!!! it's always the same. Garaja refuses to accept nuance. Jeruma insists to argue the extreme.

[Cometk]

yeah lol as umeu says. the system can somewhat be exploited. but the admins will take measures to keep it in check.

[n0el]

This ladder is much harder to exploit than the JP ladder, simply based on the formula used.

[musketeer925]

Mind you its only ~25 games and repeatedly playing the same person is not point trading at all. Rn if Id play 25 games chances are 15 are with jesus3/brookg because those are my best aoe mates. Would I be disqualified for point trading if I won all 15 of those?

Winning 15 games against the same guy, if you both started at 1600, would give you +91.3 Elo, and at 15 games into your series you're making just over +1 Elo per game. If you started at 1700 vs. his 1600, you'd gain 45.8 in 15 games. I don't really see how those are dangerous numbers. Winning 15 games in a row against someone who started at your rank *should* give you +90, and 15 games in a row against someone 100 below you giving +45 also seems reasonable.

Math:

This means it'd only be ~20-25 games to get to the top20 elo right now.

Getting into the top 20 isn't hard right now, you're right. You'll actually notice that #20 in the EP ladder has a record of 15-3. On the other hand, I tried several scenarios, and in any scenario I can concoct that is anything like "gaming the system" (i.e., playing repeated games against the same player), you can't get to the top 5 within 100 games.

So yeah, go game the system for a bit and get in the top 20. That will help the ladder improve its accuracy even though you're gaming the system to get there, because the optimal ladder will have a much wider spread of Elos. You inflating your Elo helps achieve that twofold:

1) you'll displace players with "traditionally" low Elo, so even if you're misranked, it helps get people out of the top 20 who don't belong there, or encourages them to play more to displace you again
2) assuming you occasionally play and lose against some other players, your inflated Elo will improve accuracy of other player's Elo.

Finally, your strategy won't work for very long (15 games before you start gaining +1 Elo per game against worse players), and even more so if you're not the only one doing it, since others will make the same quick gains as you (through legit or not play). You could make your strategy last longer by winning 15 games against a guy starting at 1600, then switch to winning the next 15 games against a guy who started at 1700... wait, no, that's how the ladder is supposed to work, it's not gaming the system anymore. You're forced to play against progressively higher players to make your rank go up if you want to continue improving your own rank at any reasonable rate.

[SoldieR]

Kinda sucks for players ranked like 13-16. You play one series vs a top 4 player then ur done

Wait, they play vs top group players nm

[momuuu]

Mind you its only ~25 games and repeatedly playing the same person is not point trading at all. Rn if Id play 25 games chances are 15 are with jesus3/brookg because those are my best aoe mates. Would I be disqualified for point trading if I won all 15 of those?

Winning 15 games against the same guy, if you both started at 1600, would give you +91.3 Elo, and at 15 games into your series you're making just over +1 Elo per game. If you started at 1700 vs. his 1600, you'd gain 45.8 in 15 games. I don't really see how those are dangerous numbers. Winning 15 games in a row against someone who started at your rank *should* give you +90, and 15 games in a row against someone 100 below you giving +45 also seems reasonable.

Math:

This means it'd only be ~20-25 games to get to the top20 elo right now.

Getting into the top 20 isn't hard right now, you're right. You'll actually notice that #20 in the EP ladder has a record of 15-3. On the other hand, I tried several scenarios, and in any scenario I can concoct that is anything like "gaming the system" (i.e., playing repeated games against the same player), you can't get to the top 5 within 100 games.

So yeah, go game the system for a bit and get in the top 20. That will help the ladder improve its accuracy even though you're gaming the system to get there, because the optimal ladder will have a much wider spread of Elos. You inflating your Elo helps achieve that twofold:

1) you'll displace players with "traditionally" low Elo, so even if you're misranked, it helps get people out of the top 20 who don't belong there, or encourages them to play more to displace you again
2) assuming you occasionally play and lose against some other players, your inflated Elo will improve accuracy of other player's Elo.

Finally, your strategy won't work for very long (15 games before you start gaining +1 Elo per game against worse players), and even more so if you're not the only one doing it, since others will make the same quick gains as you (through legit or not play). You could make your strategy last longer by winning 15 games against a guy starting at 1600, then switch to winning the next 15 games against a guy who started at 1700... wait, no, that's how the ladder is supposed to work, it's not gaming the system anymore. You're forced to play against progressively higher players to make your rank go up if you want to continue improving your own rank at any reasonable rate.

Yes and no. Theoretically yes the system is absolutely fine. In practise though I dont expect many rated games to be played due to this to be honest. The 'gaming the system' is abusing the beginning uncertainty that is inherent to an ELO system. While after a larger volume of games an ELO system is great, EP games currently make up a very small volume. Its not to dismiss the ladder or the system, but I do think concerns are warranted for using this system for seeding. After all, even your own post shows clearly how a medium player could rally up 2-4 friends (for me, maybe I would be able to convince for example you, snuden, pikilic, forgrin, brookg, some of those guys) to get a top 10 seed while in reality being a lowbob major.

And honestly, maybe EP ladder only is too hopeful: the playbase might just be too small to the point where pr/normal ELO are in reality better indicators of skill. After all, thats what matters here: to use the best possible indicator of skill.

[zoom]

lol these 2!!! it's always the same. Garaja refuses to accept nuance. Jeruma insists to argue the extreme.

You're pretty great at refusing to accept nuance, too – and arguing the extreme to the extreme, come to think of it. How ironic and fittingly lacking in perspective, same as it ever was.

[MaJoOorchEf_GaZa]

Finally, the tournament has arrived i.e I never want to miss a single round