This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

[Garja]

Yea I mean if you ignore the fact that on jp elo he has 2 accounts in the top 5 all time in 1v1 (cheaters and point traders ignored) and if you ignore the fact that he's a previous tourney winner and an undisputed top player in the game there really isnt a reason to seed him is there? Cause tourney seeding should be all about how active a player is and not about their skill level. I understand now, thank you for clearing that up!

Besides that he doesn't even have 1 account in the all time top5 1v1 (yes, with cheaters excluded) the same elo chart means jack shit regardless of who you decide to pick as example. You simply can't compare 2011-2012 ratings with those of 2013+ when basically the player base was halved. Just to name a blatant one, Irishfaithful 2800 score isn't in any way comparable to h2o or nagayumi 2800 got back then.
Seeding should be a matter of current playing field in the first place. If someone hasn't played in ages it shouldnt even cross your mind as a potential top seeded player.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea I mean if you ignore the fact that on jp elo he has 2 accounts in the top 5 all time in 1v1 (cheaters and point traders ignored) and if you ignore the fact that he's a previous tourney winner and an undisputed top player in the game there really isnt a reason to seed him is there? Cause tourney seeding should be all about how active a player is and not about their skill level. I understand now, thank you for clearing that up!

Besides that he doesn't even have 1 account in the all time top5 1v1 (yes, with cheaters excluded) the same elo chart means jack shit regardless of who you decide to pick as example. You simply can't compare 2011-2012 ratings with those of 2013+ when basically the player base was halved. Just to name a blatant one, Irishfaithful 2800 score isn't in any way comparable to h2o or nagayumi 2800 got back then.
Seeding should be a matter of current playing field in the first place. If someone hasn't played in ages it shouldnt even cross your mind as a potential top seeded player.

Well, that's what I said. You don't even have to smurf tournaments, just stop playing!

[Hazza54321]

Surely irishs is more impressive considering its harder to get

[Garja]

As I said, JP elo is not more accurate, even in the top40. EP elo is. How's that? Because it includes all the active players and sorts them relatively well. It is just fair that you and BSOP are not in the top20, since you barely played the EP. You could just improve the rank on thenada with just 10-15 games.
The good thing of EP elo is that rankings can change in a relatively short time period because the system is fresh so you can work for your seed before the tourney. Together with the fact that it only accounts for EP games and it excludes cheaters, that's the reason why it is a better system. JP elo is a mix of scores of different eras, which are not comparable to each other. Definitely they don't represent current state of AOE3 correctly.
About tourney results: tourney are important indeed but it is silly to refer to the results of years ago for the seeding of upcoming tourneys. If that was the case h2o should be seeded n1 forever cause of WCG
With that said next tourney seeding will very likely take into consideration the most recent tourney results, even though admins didn't specify that.

About smurfing, what are you even talking about? What does it have to do with starting from group stage on a very well known account.

[Garja]

Surely irishs is more impressive considering its harder to get

Not at all. All the old rating were much harder to get. He basically just noobashed his way up to that.

EDIT: ok let's give him what is due. It's not like he noobahsed, it's just that when he got his streak the playing field was totally different, mostly in better I'd say.

[[Armag] diarouga]

As I said, JP elo is not more accurate, even in the top40. EP elo is. How's that? Because it includes all the active players and sorts them relatively well. It is just fair that you and BSOP are not in the top20, since you barely played the EP.
We are obviously in the top20, even though we haven't played a lot. bsop won his last tournament after a 1.5 year break, which shows my point.
You could just improve the rank on thenada with just 10-15 games.
I can't really play rated because my connection drops one game out of 15/20, and I lose a considerable amount of elo because of that, but that's another topic.
The good thing of EP elo is that rankings can change in a relatively short time period because the system is fresh so you can work for your seed before the tourney.
Well, when the system is fresh, it is inaccurate because not enough games have been played (like when I played vs Mitoe he was 1680, and I was 1600 which doesn't make sense), and when it isn't fresh, well, it just takes too many games to rank up and people who come back can't rank up.
That's why an elo ladder needs at least 1 year to become accurate actually. Besides, some guys almost exclusively play on the RE, and can become good on the RE, and then join the EP ladder like smurfs.
Together with the fact that it only accounts for EP gamess and it excludes cheaters, that's the reason why it is a better system.
That's not really an argument. There aren't enough EP games to make it accurate so I'd say that it is a drawback actually, and cheaters can be banned manually.
JP elo is a mix of scores of different eras, which are not comparable to each other. Definitely they don't represent current state of AOE£ correctly.
Yes, but still better than EP ladder.
About tourney results: Tourney are important indeed but it is silly to refer to the results of years ago for the seeding of upcoming tourneys. If that was the case h2o should be seeded n1 forever cause of WCG
Well, that would make sense to me. Still, it can be an issue since it was 10 years ago and it isn't really relevant anymore, and thus you can rank people according to their ESOC tourney results, which are accurate.
With that said next tourney seeding will very likely take into consideration the most recent tourney results, even though admins didn't specify that.

About smurfing, what are you even talking about? What's that have to do with starting from group stage on a very well known account.
The issue with smurfing isn't really that you don't know who your opponent is, but rather that he gets seeded with a low elo account and kicks out top players in the early rounds (the issue with erik wasn't that people weren't aware who he was, but that he had 2 accounts in the tourney and defeated Fard.

[deleted_user0]

Eaglemut got his elo when it was easier to rank up. Now it has already been misplaced by a lot without even playing. He did it "on purpose" as you say, but I don't know what's wrong with that. When
a system is new everyone is up to gain its rank. If bsop never played more than 6 games (I'm sure he doesnt in fact cares at all about AOE£ atm) why should he even been seeding or anything. The moment he decides to sign up is when he has to rank up if he wants a proper seed. Otherwise ye he will do group stage at the expenses of someone else.

see that's just dumb. Bsop could not play the game for a year and he's still easily a top 16 player, which is clearly shown by jap elo. If you go by stupid ep elo he obviously has the standard 1600 which is a obviously not a representation of his skill.

but what if he didnt play the game for 10 years, and then he'd come back. should he still get top seed because he had 2700 elo 10 years ago? What if Darwin giovanny comes back now. Should he get top seed because he has 2880 elo? I doubt it, and he hasn't even been gone for 10 years. 5 at most.

[Garja]

You are in the top20 if you actually are in it. Atm you're not in the top20. Get one of your accounts there.
EP elo was maybe inaccurate 3-4 months ago. Now it has been rolling for like 8 months. 10 months in september. And in fact top10 is now 200 points away from the starting score.
In any case seeds are not set in stone. They change from tourney to tourney depending on how well you qualify. That's something you guys keep ignoring. If a decent player just has a good streak and places well, it is fair that he will get seeded well. That's the purpose of seeding. Otherwise you can just pick the same players over and over and seed them in the top32, since with JP elo and past tourney results things are set in stone.

About smurfing. The problem is when you don't know you're playing vs a much better player. Of course there should be a bottom line for cases like the BSOP one. But the point is that if he doesn't play a couple games at least on EP (which inevitably will change his rank) he won't (or shoulnd't at least) even be allowed to participate.

[[Armag] diarouga]

@[Armag] diarouga
You are in the top20 if you actually are in it. Atm you're not in the top20. Get one of your accounts there.
As I said in other topics, I'm not really interested in playing aoe3 anymore so I don't really care. Claiming that I'm not top20 though is dumb, as it's undeniable I am, regardless of the elo ladder.
It was maybe inaccurate 3-4 months ago. Now it hasd been rolling for like 8 months. 10 at september. And in fact top10 is now 200 points away from the start.
Yes, and 200 points is nothing. And as I said previously, it's still not accurate enough.
In any case seeds are not set in stone. They change from tourney to tourney depending on how well you qualify. That's something you guys keep ignoring. If a decent player just has a good streak and places well, it is fair that he will get seeded well. That's the purpose of seeding. Otherwise you can just pick the same players over and over and seed them in the top32, since with JP elo and past tourney results things are set in stone.
No, because there are new tournaments, and thus you can change it.

About smurfing. The problem is when you don't know you're playing vs a much better player. Of course there should be a bottom line for cases like the BSOP one. But the point is that if he doesn't play a couple games at least on EP (which inevitably will change his rank) he won't (or shoulnd't at least) even be allowed to participate.
Why not lol? That's totally dumb, why would you have to play some games to be allowed to participate?

[Garja]

You simply are not in the top20 for the effects of seedings. It's just a fact not a matter of opinion. Do we have to argue about that? lol
200 point is small enough to let players rank up but also big enough to sort players for an upcoming event.
A player is not going to change his seed based on tourneys only, cause that's just a too limited amount of spots, and usually even taken by the same players. With old system top 32 were basically seeded based on top 32 results. Guess who gets there

It is not dumb to set a min number of games to be eligible for qualification. Not playing at all means you are inactive, with also the consenquences of your rank being outdated, like in this case. It is mostly a rule to prevent point sitting.

[[Armag] diarouga]

You simply are not in the top20 for the effects of seedings. It's just a fact not a matter of opinion. Do we have to argue about that? lol
Well, I'm arguing that I am top20 because there aren't 20 players who are better than me (which is undeniable), and thus I take myself as an example (I could take bsop or erik too) to prove that the way people are seeded isn't relevant because the EP ladder top20 isn't the top 20, and you answer that since I am not in the top20 of the EP ladder, I am objectivily not top 20, which shows that you totally missed the point.
200 point is small enough to let players rank up but also big enough to sort player for an upcoming event.
You are not going to change your seed based on tourneys only, cause that's just a too limited amount of spots, and usually even taken by the same players. You basically seed top 32 based on top 32 results. Guess who gets there

It is not dumb to set a min number of games to be eligible for qualification. Not playing at all means you are inactive, with also the consenquences of your rank being outdated, like in this case. It is mostly a rule to prevent point sitting.
Well, claiming that inactive players should have to qualify is an opinion (even if I disagree because aoe3 being an inactive game it is inaccurate), but not allowing them to participate at all is just a non sense, sorry.

[Garja]

The EP top20 isn't necessarily the top20 in your mind or the "objective 20 best players". It is simply a rating chart that depicts current state. If you want to get in there you have to play and earn the rank when it matters.
Besides, it isn't even far from being an objective representation of 20 best players atm.

As for the inactivity thing, not qualifying is the same as not participating if there is only a limited amount of spots.

[gibson]

Yea I mean if you ignore the fact that on jp elo he has 2 accounts in the top 5 all time in 1v1 (cheaters and point traders ignored) and if you ignore the fact that he's a previous tourney winner and an undisputed top player in the game there really isnt a reason to seed him is there? Cause tourney seeding should be all about how active a player is and not about their skill level. I understand now, thank you for clearing that up!

Besides that he doesn't even have 1 account in the all time top5 1v1 (yes, with cheaters excluded) the same elo chart means jack shit regardless of who you decide to pick as example. You simply can't compare 2011-2012 ratings with those of 2013+ when basically the player base was halved. Just to name a blatant one, Irishfaithful 2800 score isn't in any way comparable to h2o or nagayumi 2800 got back then.
Seeding should be a matter of current playing field in the first place. If someone hasn't played in ages it shouldnt even cross your mind as a potential top seeded player.

we're obviously talking 1v1 elo not overall elo idiot

[Garja]

we are obviously talking of 1v1 max elo rating, idiot.

[gibson]

Eaglemut got his elo when it was easier to rank up. Now it has already been misplaced by a lot without even playing. He did it "on purpose" as you say, but I don't know what's wrong with that. When
a system is new everyone is up to gain its rank. If bsop never played more than 6 games (I'm sure he doesnt in fact cares at all about AOE£ atm) why should he even been seeding or anything. The moment he decides to sign up is when he has to rank up if he wants a proper seed. Otherwise ye he will do group stage at the expenses of someone else.

see that's just dumb. Bsop could not play the game for a year and he's still easily a top 16 player, which is clearly shown by jap elo. If you go by stupid ep elo he obviously has the standard 1600 which is a obviously not a representation of his skill.

but what if he didnt play the game for 10 years, and then he'd come back. should he still get top seed because he had 2700 elo 10 years ago? What if Darwin giovanny comes back now. Should he get top seed because he has 2880 elo? I doubt it, and he hasn't even been gone for 10 years. 5 at most.

5 years is clearly different than the 4 or whatever months it's been since blackstar played. However I'd say if he came back and was beating pr35s yes I'd give him a top 16 seed. If he came back and was losing to pr30s no I wouldn't. It's situational

[deleted_user0]

Yea I mean if you ignore the fact that on jp elo he has 2 accounts in the top 5 all time in 1v1 (cheaters and point traders ignored) and if you ignore the fact that he's a previous tourney winner and an undisputed top player in the game there really isnt a reason to seed him is there? Cause tourney seeding should be all about how active a player is and not about their skill level. I understand now, thank you for clearing that up!

Besides that he doesn't even have 1 account in the all time top5 1v1 (yes, with cheaters excluded) the same elo chart means jack shit regardless of who you decide to pick as example. You simply can't compare 2011-2012 ratings with those of 2013+ when basically the player base was halved. Just to name a blatant one, Irishfaithful 2800 score isn't in any way comparable to h2o or nagayumi 2800 got back then.
Seeding should be a matter of current playing field in the first place. If someone hasn't played in ages it shouldnt even cross your mind as a potential top seeded player.

we're obviously talking 1v1 elo not overall elo idiot

that's not all time though, hence the confusion between you and garja, that's the current one, of people who still have that elo, other players have had higher elo, but they kept playing on their acc so they lost it again. bsop would lose it too if he started playing on it again. as would any of those in that list.

[gibson]

we are obviously talking of 1v1 max elo rating, idiot.

No literally nowhere did anyone say max 1v1 elo. Literally nowhere. Anyway it's a detail not the point. The Point is he's a top 16 player and just cause you're trying to use tournament seeding to force everyone to play on EP doesn't mean he should be excluded, if he wanted to play.

[deleted_user0]

we are obviously talking of 1v1 max elo rating, idiot.

No literally nowhere did anyone say max 1v1 elo. Literally nowhere. Anyway it's a detail not the point. The Point is he's a top 16 player and just cause you're trying to use tournament seeding to force everyone to play on EP doesn't mean he should be excluded, if he wanted to play.

he wouldnt be excluded, he would just get a lower seed. big deal.

[deleted_user0]

Just take for example 12 highest elo players and rest of the 4 spots are allocated using previous tournament succeess.
ezpz
and ignore obvious point traders ofc

[deleted_user0]

Show hidden quotes

Eaglemut got his elo when it was easier to rank up. Now it has already been misplaced by a lot without even playing. He did it "on purpose" as you say, but I don't know what's wrong with that. When
a system is new everyone is up to gain its rank. If bsop never played more than 6 games (I'm sure he doesnt in fact cares at all about AOE£ atm) why should he even been seeding or anything. The moment he decides to sign up is when he has to rank up if he wants a proper seed. Otherwise ye he will do group stage at the expenses of someone else.

see that's just dumb. Bsop could not play the game for a year and he's still easily a top 16 player, which is clearly shown by jap elo. If you go by stupid ep elo he obviously has the standard 1600 which is a obviously not a representation of his skill.

but what if he didnt play the game for 10 years, and then he'd come back. should he still get top seed because he had 2700 elo 10 years ago? What if Darwin giovanny comes back now. Should he get top seed because he has 2880 elo? I doubt it, and he hasn't even been gone for 10 years. 5 at most.

5 years is clearly different than the 4 or whatever months it's been since blackstar played. However I'd say if he came back and was beating pr35s yes I'd give him a top 16 seed. If he came back and was losing to pr30s no I wouldn't. It's situational

It is clearly different, but where does that stop? 1 year, 2 years, 3? Slippery slope.

situational kinda equals subjective and arbitrary in this case. Hardly a great system for tournament seeding. Besides, what's being argued here is that bsop should be given a spot without playing, so how would u even know if hes beating or losing to players :/

[gibson]

we are obviously talking of 1v1 max elo rating, idiot.

No literally nowhere did anyone say max 1v1 elo. Literally nowhere. Anyway it's a detail not the point. The Point is he's a top 16 player and just cause you're trying to use tournament seeding to force everyone to play on EP doesn't mean he should be excluded, if he wanted to play.

he wouldnt be excluded, he would just get a lower seed. big deal.

i mean excluded from the top 16. I don't much care where, although to me it wouldn't make sense for him to be in the button half. It wouldn't really be fair for him to play Ryan for example before the semi finals.

[gibson]

Show hidden quotes

Eaglemut got his elo when it was easier to rank up. Now it has already been misplaced by a lot without even playing. He did it "on purpose" as you say, but I don't know what's wrong with that. When
a system is new everyone is up to gain its rank. If bsop never played more than 6 games (I'm sure he doesnt in fact cares at all about AOE£ atm) why should he even been seeding or anything. The moment he decides to sign up is when he has to rank up if he wants a proper seed. Otherwise ye he will do group stage at the expenses of someone else.

see that's just dumb. Bsop could not play the game for a year and he's still easily a top 16 player, which is clearly shown by jap elo. If you go by stupid ep elo he obviously has the standard 1600 which is a obviously not a representation of his skill.

but what if he didnt play the game for 10 years, and then he'd come back. should he still get top seed because he had 2700 elo 10 years ago? What if Darwin giovanny comes back now. Should he get top seed because he has 2880 elo? I doubt it, and he hasn't even been gone for 10 years. 5 at most.

5 years is clearly different than the 4 or whatever months it's been since blackstar played. However I'd say if he came back and was beating pr35s yes I'd give him a top 16 seed. If he came back and was losing to pr30s no I wouldn't. It's situational

It is clearly different, but where does that stop? 1 year, 2 years, 3? Slippery slope.

situational kinda equals subjective and arbitrary in this case. Hardly a great system for tournament seeding. Besides, what's being argued here is that bsop should be given a spot without playing, so how would u even know if hes beating or losing to players :/

to me the years don't matter. What matter is if a player is capable of playing at a top level. Bsop clearly still is. He did 3 months ago. Darwin, I would assume, isn't. However, if he came back and played 20 games and was beating Hazza and Raphael I would say fast track him to top 16.

[Garja]

we are obviously talking of 1v1 max elo rating, idiot.

No literally nowhere did anyone say max 1v1 elo. Literally nowhere. Anyway it's a detail not the point. The Point is he's a top 16 player and just cause you're trying to use tournament seeding to force everyone to play on EP doesn't mean he should be excluded, if he wanted to play.

You said all time which is = max. And no he is not top16, simply because he isn't in top16 now Surely he can easily get there, but he has to do it like everyone else.
Using EP elo is not just to promote EP activity per se. It is to set a better long term objective method of seeding. It had to be started somewhen, and the time is now. Considering that rankings are fairly accurate it is not big deal at all.
You do realize if someone comes back and play 20 games his Elo changes a lot?

[Aykin Haraka]

time to stop placing players with their elo and start doing it by placing players with their name and results in latest tourney

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, Tit got it.
Anyway, being top 16 is a matter of skill level, not pixel point. So if someone can easily get to top16, he is a top16 player, regardless of his current elo.

Also the current EP ladder isn't accurate at all. I'd say your current elo depends 50% on your skill level, 50% on the number of games you play.

Ex: (I don't want to be offensive, but it's something people need to understand)
Somppu is 3rd with a 50% winrate because he's the guy who's played the most games
You're 6th with like 56% because you've played a lot

How does it even make sense to have top 6 players with a 55% winrate? You two have a good elo because you've played a lot, and that's quite obvious.
For instance Raph's, mankle's and aiz' elos are much more impressive, as their win rates are close to 90% (though they've bashed some noobs).
Some guys just have a good elo because they've played a lot, not because they're good (Somppu and you are both good players, but no way somppu is 3rd, and no way you're 6th).