THE NEW WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP - Sign Ups Now OPEN!

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France [Armag] diarouga
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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Forcing people to play QS is something I suggested and it would be the best solution imo.
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Post by lordraphael »

Kaiserklein wrote:@[Armag] diarouga I know tabben obviously has no incentive to play rated since he's #1. And yeah he can't be blamed. I'm just saying there has to be a rule to prevent that kind of behaviour, because for an elo system to be accurate it needs to have active players. It's based on people exchanging points, not on people doing nothing.
Forcing people to play qs, or using the max ep elo (since it's a recent system anyway), or having some sort of decay would be good steps towards fixing this problem.

And yeah, the elo also needs to be less punishing for good players, cause that's another issue.

ofc people can be blamed, the habit of playing unrated is just insanely strong in aoe 3, in aoe2 you dont have a qs/ sc2 system aswell, but everyone plays rated. No matter if they troll or not, need high seeds for tourneys etc. The Viper basically never reaches top 1 on ladder despite being the undisputed #1 player because he frequently trolls and always plays rated, although it costs him the #1 seeds fro the tourneys.
Also theres a decay system, after 1 or 2 weeks elo starts decaying. Tho even with a decay system its still easy to sit on points, cause all you need to do is bash 1 low level scrub and prevent decay from happening.
Problem really is the mindset of players.
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Post by Veni_Vidi_Vici_W »

The problem is both. You cant rely on the mindsets or good will of a player (I can insert anything here from abusing bugs to hacks). We dont live in a perfect world. Far from, which is what SC 2 understands and thats why they took care of it.

The current situation of not that much activity in aoe3, has a major impact on the accuracy of the elo ranking. Elo itself isnt bad, you just need to correct it for cherry picking opponents and inactivity. Especially for a big tourney like this. It would be sad if the seeding will be very distorted because of the current flaws.
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Post by Kaiserklein »

Well yeah I agree the mindset sucks which is why I'm annoyed and end up ranting here. I'd like people to just play rated. But like veni said you can't just expect people to be nice and not abuse the system when it's so easily abusable.
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Post by Lukas_L99 »

Kaiserklein wrote:
tabben wrote:Anyways the system is obviously quite bad when basically 9/10 players on top10 are either inactive or point sitting. (Soldier/Hazza/Lukas/Prince all play on two or more accounts simultaneously which is a form of point sitting.) But can't really blame anyone for doing so when tourney seed is at stake. Right now I just play unrated to not get fucked by the system. For example going 2-1 vs someone 1800+ and end up losing elo just feels shit tbh.

I definitely wouldn't mind using 'Max EP elo' instead of current, to encourage more rated games being played (I suggested this like a week ago). Cause right now it's generally just a bad trade to play rated once you're in a good position. Though this would possibly favour some players too much (for example someone with close to 1900 max elo but who currently struggles to break 1800 elo). But maybe it's for the better overall.

You wouldn't get "fucked by the system" if you played rated though. You're in fact fucking the system by playing unrated. Just like everyone else is. If you guys would all keep playing rated games, the elo would eventually become somewhat accurate instead of being a big joke. But if every guy who reaches a good elo just stops playing rated, we end up having this situation, where it's almost impossible for someone playing fair (aka not cherry picking / playing unrated) to get to his real elo level by just playing games, cause it's just not worth it. Only way is to do like everyone else and start playing unrated yourself after a win streak, which is just totally gay. The elo system should be an incentive for players to actually play, and not sit there on top with a fake elo. Can't really blame you though, you're just abusing the system, which is normal I guess.


You’re right, it would balance out after some time but the seeding for the tourney is gonna be in about 2 weeks. It would take way more time to get an accurate elo than that.
I know point sitting is lame af but right now it’s the only smart thing to do. I went 2-1 vs Mitoe and gained 3 elo from that, thats bs.

Edit: Oh shit, i just missed an entire page. Mb.
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Post by Veni_Vidi_Vici_W »

According to the Elo page you were 1852 and Mitoe was 1824 before playing eachother. You gained 14 points after 1 win vs Mitoe.

You have to win more games ofc given that you are the higher ranked player, but to me it seems a bit unrealistic that you have to basically win 2 out of every 3 games vs someone ranked only about 30 points lower. Also taking into account that both are 225+ higher than the default rating. Also there should be a cap on it. JP elo had 31 max.

Perhaps given how the situation is now with aoe3, the current Elo formula isnt ideal.
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Post by Lukas_L99 »

Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:According to the Elo page you were 1852 and Mitoe was 1824 before playing eachother. What is the Elo formula used at Esoc?

You have to win more ofc, but to me it seems a bit unrealistic that you have to basically win 2 out of every 3 games vs someone ranked only about 30 points lower. Also taking into account that both are 225+ higher than the default rating. Also there should be a cap on it. JP elo had 31 max


My point rather was that Mitoe is the better player than me so I should theoretically gain more elo if it was accurate.
But it isnt right now so there’s no real point in playing rated before the seeding.
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Post by GiBthedurrty »

EP elo xD
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Post by Garja »

If I remember correctly, EP Elo is pretty much same as JP Elo but with different multiplier and/or cap for win/loss. So I don't think there is much to look in the formula itself. Just need random conditions and frequent playing.
The only automatic/formula related thing is decay, which is just good. Decay with a certain cap (e.g. max -100 elo).
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Post by deleted_user0 »

I think all the high levels here are going to be top 64. Then you simply have to beat your opponents and you can even lose once to make it to top 8. Don't take too much stress about seeding :)
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Post by Mitoe »

I mean losing a lot of elo when you lose to someone significantly lower rated than you is normal and totally fine. There should probably be some sort of cap on the max you can lose or gain, but otherwise it's fine.

The real problem is that there's no decay, and therefore no incentive to continue playing once you reach the top of the ladder because you have nothing to gain and everything to lose. At least if there was decay it would force you to keep your rating honest.

As for the tournament seeding... Maybe it would've been good to just reset the EP elo ladder at the start of March and use Max EP elo, because in that case it would incentivize players to continue playing even if they're at their max because they can always go up, but at the same time reflects current skill rather than historical skill which is what Max JP elo will cover. Or maybe we can include a "Max elo in the last 30 days" type of thing for future tournament seeding.
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Post by sebnan12 »

welcome back raffel
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Post by gibson »

tbh its a little disappointing that there are only 77 signups more than halfway through
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Post by tabben »

gibson wrote:tbh its a little disappointing that there are only 77 signups more than halfway through
Why? It's more about who signs up than how many. You could have 300 signups and the tourney would still suck if 10-15 names weren't on the list.

Also it makes perfect sense that few additional people sign up once 'Number of signed up players' > 'Maximum tourney participants'.

That's because most of the good players tend to sign up early and:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Well, if you have a bad elo you know you're not going to be selected, and you wouldn't qualify anyway, so why sign up?
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Post by Snuden »

I might sign up just to get rejected, it is my way of letting ESOC show dominance.
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Post by gibson »

tabben wrote:
gibson wrote:tbh its a little disappointing that there are only 77 signups more than halfway through
Why? It's more about who signs up than how many. You could have 300 signups and the tourney would still suck if 10-15 names weren't on the list.

Also it makes perfect sense that few additional people sign up once 'Number of signed up players' > 'Maximum tourney participants'.

That's because most of the good players tend to sign up early and:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Well, if you have a bad elo you know you're not going to be selected, and you wouldn't qualify anyway, so why sign up?

I mean its both, which are both disappointing. So far no one who isnt currently active has signed up. It also just goes to show how dead the game is that only 77 people would sign up for a 4k lan tourney.
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Post by charlemango »

Someone get blackstar_op, h20, and lordraphael to sign up!
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Post by Hazza54321 »

they fear tabben
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Post by Imperial Noob »

gibson wrote:
tabben wrote:
gibson wrote:tbh its a little disappointing that there are only 77 signups more than halfway through
Why? It's more about who signs up than how many. You could have 300 signups and the tourney would still suck if 10-15 names weren't on the list.

Also it makes perfect sense that few additional people sign up once 'Number of signed up players' > 'Maximum tourney participants'.

That's because most of the good players tend to sign up early and:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Well, if you have a bad elo you know you're not going to be selected, and you wouldn't qualify anyway, so why sign up?

I mean its both, which are both disappointing. So far no one who isnt currently active has signed up. It also just goes to show how dead the game is that only 77 people would sign up for a 4k lan tourney.

The playerbase is just very stratified after all those years. Yesterday, on a random European Monday evening there was over 1150 players online at the same time. But everyone who watches streams and tourneys (and this is the part of the player base that knows about the tournament in the first place) knows about this stratification of skill. Most cases of low elo players playing against known top 30 players end with max. number : 0. People just don't consider it fun to play for a certain loss in a videogame.

So while I would definitely like to see 100 times more top level players, current state of the game is not bad.
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Post by musketeer925 »

Although it's probably too late for this tournament's seeding, if top players could come to a specific consensus on a better rating formula, decay system, or max points lost/gained per game, I'm sure it could be implemented for the site and future tournaments. What I've seen so far in the thread are complaints about the system and other player's behaviors, and a few vague suggestions for improving the system. It seems like basically everyone does agree that it's not an ideal system.
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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

musketeer925 wrote:Although it's probably too late for this tournament's seeding, if top players could come to a specific consensus on a better rating formula, decay system, or max points lost/gained per game, I'm sure it could be implemented for the site and future tournaments. What I've seen so far in the thread are complaints about the system and other player's behaviors, and a few vague suggestions for improving the system. It seems like basically everyone does agree that it's not an ideal system.

My suggestions :
1) Only QS games are rated
2) You can't lose/win more than 25 points per game.
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Post by Hazza54321 »

I think lobby games being rated is good too. If it is only qs itll make it impossible to get rated games when they should be the norm anyway,none of this unr crap.
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Post by SoldieR »

1) Use max ep elo
2) if rating > 1700, decay 10 points a week with no rated games. If > 1800 decay 15 points a week
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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Nah, decay every week is to big. It would have to be every 2 or 3 weeks at least.
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Post by SoldieR »

Aom had decay over 1750 once a week and over 1900 every 3 days. That kept 2k as a max rank and rare to achieve. Might not be as much activity but this itself promotes activity.

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