THE NEW WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP - Sign Ups Now OPEN!

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Post by gibson »

IAmSoldieR wrote:Prove it by getting 1800 without point trading

What?
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Post by Kaiserklein »

It just sucks that I feel like playing anyone isn't worth it. Playing literally anyone will result in me inevitably losing elo at the end of the day. Or well, "literally anyone" as in "literally anyone who will play rated vs me"...

Edit: besides hazza and soldier, to be fair. But that's just cause they're nice and don't cherry pick
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Post by bwinner »

Kaiserklein wrote:It just sucks that I feel like playing anyone isn't worth it. Playing literally anyone will result in me inevitably losing elo at the end of the day. Or well, "literally anyone" as in "literally anyone who will play rated vs me"...

Edit: besides hazza and soldier, to be fair. But that's just cause they're nice and don't cherry pick

if you lose elo to anyone, how are you rated nb 2 on the ladder ? did you take everything vs hazza and soldier ? :hmm:
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Post by SoldieR »

I think the flaw is using current ep elo, rather than max ep elo. That would surely stop people from point sitting, as they would have more to gain from playing.
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bwinner1 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:It just sucks that I feel like playing anyone isn't worth it. Playing literally anyone will result in me inevitably losing elo at the end of the day. Or well, "literally anyone" as in "literally anyone who will play rated vs me"...

Edit: besides hazza and soldier, to be fair. But that's just cause they're nice and don't cherry pick

if you lose elo to anyone, how are you rated nb 2 on the ladder ? did you take everything vs hazza and soldier ? :hmm:

If I gain 1 elo by beating someone over pr 30, and drop 30 elo by losing, it means I need to have a ratio of 30-1 vs that guy to stay at the same rank. I think you can understand that's very hard. For example, that's what I need (or at least, needed, cause elo changes constantly) to do vs dicktator, mongo10, jerimuno, castete, you, etc. If I didn't play vs this kind of guys, I would probably still be 1960 elo or so.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Post by Kaiserklein »

IAmSoldieR wrote:I think the flaw is using current ep elo, rather than max ep elo. That would surely stop people from point sitting, as they would have more to gain from playing.

Yeah that's also fine
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Post by bwinner »

Kaiserklein wrote:
bwinner1 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:It just sucks that I feel like playing anyone isn't worth it. Playing literally anyone will result in me inevitably losing elo at the end of the day. Or well, "literally anyone" as in "literally anyone who will play rated vs me"...

Edit: besides hazza and soldier, to be fair. But that's just cause they're nice and don't cherry pick

if you lose elo to anyone, how are you rated nb 2 on the ladder ? did you take everything vs hazza and soldier ? :hmm:

If I gain 1 elo by beating someone over pr 30, and drop 30 elo by losing, it means I need to have a ratio of 30-1 vs that guy to stay at the same rank. I think you can understand that's very hard. For example, that's what I need (or at least, needed, cause elo changes constantly) to do vs dicktator, mongo10, jerimuno, castete, you, etc. If I didn't play vs this kind of guys, I would probably still be 1960 elo or so.

maybe it means you worth 1880 elo ? You are not supposed to improve every time you play with the elo system, just when you are playing better than your elo
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Post by Garja »

Score are abnormally skewed in that case. Normally those players have higher elo and you do gain 5-10 points at least, meaning you "only" have to win 4-1.
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Post by gibson »

Ofc its scewed lol, there are like 10 active 1v1 players which isnt anywhere near enough for a proper ranking system.
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Post by Garja »

I was refering to mongo and dicktator who have an unusual low rating. Overall EP elo does reflect the strenght of the player. And it's working for the top50 spots atleast. Top10 is gradually moving up and so are other spots but slower.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

Kaiserklein wrote:
bwinner1 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:It just sucks that I feel like playing anyone isn't worth it. Playing literally anyone will result in me inevitably losing elo at the end of the day. Or well, "literally anyone" as in "literally anyone who will play rated vs me"...

Edit: besides hazza and soldier, to be fair. But that's just cause they're nice and don't cherry pick

if you lose elo to anyone, how are you rated nb 2 on the ladder ? did you take everything vs hazza and soldier ? :hmm:

If I gain 1 elo by beating someone over pr 30, and drop 30 elo by losing, it means I need to have a ratio of 30-1 vs that guy to stay at the same rank. I think you can understand that's very hard. For example, that's what I need (or at least, needed, cause elo changes constantly) to do vs dicktator, mongo10, jerimuno, castete, you, etc. If I didn't play vs this kind of guys, I would probably still be 1960 elo or so.



I don't know if it's that far from how it would be on JP elo, tbh. mongo10, if you look at how he's playing at the moment, should be 2200 jp elo, while you should be 2600. With a 400 elo difference, you also just gain about 1 point on JP elo. The only thing here is that on EP elo it seems to be a smaller gap, 200 instead of 400, so this doesn't have much to do with the rating of players, not directly anyway, but rather the weighting of rank.
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Post by Kaiserklein »

umeu wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
Show hidden quotes

If I gain 1 elo by beating someone over pr 30, and drop 30 elo by losing, it means I need to have a ratio of 30-1 vs that guy to stay at the same rank. I think you can understand that's very hard. For example, that's what I need (or at least, needed, cause elo changes constantly) to do vs dicktator, mongo10, jerimuno, castete, you, etc. If I didn't play vs this kind of guys, I would probably still be 1960 elo or so.



I don't know if it's that far from how it would be on JP elo, tbh. mongo10, if you look at how he's playing at the moment, should be 2200 jp elo, while you should be 2600. With a 400 elo difference, you also just gain about 1 point on JP elo. The only thing here is that on EP elo it seems to be a smaller gap, 200 instead of 400, so this doesn't have much to do with the rating of players, not directly anyway, but rather the weighting of rank.

Well, on jap elo I'd lose 31 elo at most. On ep elo i'd lose like 35-40 elo. And 31 jap elo doesn't make a huge difference since everyone has more elo and the ratings are less clumped, while 35+ ep elo is absolutely huge if you look at the ladder. Like right now, if I'd lose a single game to mongo for example (which can happen even if he's rusty), I'd probably go down from #2 to #7 or so, regardless of how many times I beat him since that gives me just 1 elo.
But anyway, jap elo is also rough yeah. Just way less than ep elo cause it's less punishing and it's older. I feel like PR is better in some aspects, if we'd just tweak it a bit.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Post by Kaiserklein »

bwinner1 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
Show hidden quotes

If I gain 1 elo by beating someone over pr 30, and drop 30 elo by losing, it means I need to have a ratio of 30-1 vs that guy to stay at the same rank. I think you can understand that's very hard. For example, that's what I need (or at least, needed, cause elo changes constantly) to do vs dicktator, mongo10, jerimuno, castete, you, etc. If I didn't play vs this kind of guys, I would probably still be 1960 elo or so.

maybe it means you worth 1880 elo ? You are not supposed to improve every time you play with the elo system, just when you are playing better than your elo

"worth 1880 elo" compared to who? It's a ladder so it doesn't matter how many points I have, it's about the difference to other players. I'm fine with being 1880 elo if other players have an elo that makes sense compared to mine.
And anyway, at 1880 elo, I anyway still need to have a 30+ to 1 win ratio vs some lt cols or even cols if I want to keep my elo. That's the point, it's too rough imo. It just encourages players to cherry pick big times.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Post by pingiu »

bwinner1 wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:It is lol

I almost never need more than 5min to find an opponent and more than 50% of the times, I have a friend online so I don't even wait.



and what is if you have no friend?
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Post by bwinner »

pingiu wrote:
bwinner1 wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:It is lol

I almost never need more than 5min to find an opponent and more than 50% of the times, I have a friend online so I don't even wait.



and what is if you have no friend?

come play
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Post by Kaiserklein »

So after winning 6-1 vs hazza (who was in top 10 elo) and gaining just 39 elo, I lost 36 elo by losing 1 game to a colonel dude. Can we fix the elo system already? Or am I supposed to just play only unrated games until the end of march once I'm at spot #1 like the other sissies?
The current system just favours lower level players, and rewards cherry picking and inactivity lol. It's so bad.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Post by Hazza54321 »

You earn less points if your opponent is hungover
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Post by deleted_user0 »

ya its bad.
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Post by tabben »

Kaiserklein wrote:I lost 36 elo by losing 1 game to a colonel dude.
Didn't you say Jeri was major like two weeks ago? :hehe:

Anyways the system is obviously quite bad when basically 9/10 players on top10 are either inactive or point sitting. (Soldier/Hazza/Lukas/Prince all play on two or more accounts simultaneously which is a form of point sitting.) But can't really blame anyone for doing so when tourney seed is at stake. Right now I just play unrated to not get fucked by the system. For example going 2-1 vs someone 1800+ and end up losing elo just feels shit tbh.

I definitely wouldn't mind using 'Max EP elo' instead of current, to encourage more rated games being played (I suggested this like a week ago). Cause right now it's generally just a bad trade to play rated once you're in a good position. Though this would possibly favour some players too much (for example someone with close to 1900 max elo but who currently struggles to break 1800 elo). But maybe it's for the better overall.
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Post by Garja »

In all of this, a big problem is that tourney games don't count on Elo. then you have to count them in other way which is not completely fair.
Overall this game as so much variance with MU balance and shit that make it far from the concept of competitive. 14 civs is just too big of a civ pool and so is 9 maps. Especially 1 civ per game in the tourney is going to be a huge lottery.
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Post by Kaiserklein »

tabben wrote:Anyways the system is obviously quite bad when basically 9/10 players on top10 are either inactive or point sitting. (Soldier/Hazza/Lukas/Prince all play on two or more accounts simultaneously which is a form of point sitting.) But can't really blame anyone for doing so when tourney seed is at stake. Right now I just play unrated to not get fucked by the system. For example going 2-1 vs someone 1800+ and end up losing elo just feels shit tbh.

I definitely wouldn't mind using 'Max EP elo' instead of current, to encourage more rated games being played (I suggested this like a week ago). Cause right now it's generally just a bad trade to play rated once you're in a good position. Though this would possibly favour some players too much (for example someone with close to 1900 max elo but who currently struggles to break 1800 elo). But maybe it's for the better overall.

You wouldn't get "fucked by the system" if you played rated though. You're in fact fucking the system by playing unrated. Just like everyone else is. If you guys would all keep playing rated games, the elo would eventually become somewhat accurate instead of being a big joke. But if every guy who reaches a good elo just stops playing rated, we end up having this situation, where it's almost impossible for someone playing fair (aka not cherry picking / playing unrated) to get to his real elo level by just playing games, cause it's just not worth it. Only way is to do like everyone else and start playing unrated yourself after a win streak, which is just totally gay. The elo system should be an incentive for players to actually play, and not sit there on top with a fake elo. Can't really blame you though, you're just abusing the system, which is normal I guess.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:
tabben wrote:Anyways the system is obviously quite bad when basically 9/10 players on top10 are either inactive or point sitting. (Soldier/Hazza/Lukas/Prince all play on two or more accounts simultaneously which is a form of point sitting.) But can't really blame anyone for doing so when tourney seed is at stake. Right now I just play unrated to not get fucked by the system. For example going 2-1 vs someone 1800+ and end up losing elo just feels shit tbh.

I definitely wouldn't mind using 'Max EP elo' instead of current, to encourage more rated games being played (I suggested this like a week ago). Cause right now it's generally just a bad trade to play rated once you're in a good position. Though this would possibly favour some players too much (for example someone with close to 1900 max elo but who currently struggles to break 1800 elo). But maybe it's for the better overall.

You wouldn't get "fucked by the system" if you played rated though.

He would, because he would probably drop back to 1800-1850 while the other guys would sit on their elo (which is the current system).

You're in fact fucking the system by playing unrated. Just like everyone else is. If you guys would all keep playing rated games, the elo would eventually become somewhat accurate instead of being a big joke.

It would, but as tabben says, why would he want the elo to become accurate when he is number 1? It's just better for him.

But if every guy who reaches a good elo just stops playing rated, we end up having this situation, where it's almost impossible for someone playing fair (aka not cherry picking / playing unrated) to get to his real elo level by just playing games, cause it's just not worth it. Only way is to do like everyone else and start playing unrated yourself after a win streak, which is just totally gay. The elo system should be an incentive for players to actually play, and not sit there on top with a fake elo. Can't really blame you though, you're just abusing the system, which is normal I guess.

Yea. To be fair you can't blame the guys who abuse the system when the issue is the system. In a perfect world you would have to play on a regular basis and you wouldn't be allowed to pick your opponent. That's how it works in Starcraft II and, as a result, the rating system is very accurate.
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Post by Hazza54321 »

i think i lost 50 elo one game once lol i thought theres supposed to be a cap
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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea, I think 25 is a reasonable cap.
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Post by Kaiserklein »

@[Armag] diarouga I know tabben obviously has no incentive to play rated since he's #1. And yeah he can't be blamed. I'm just saying there has to be a rule to prevent that kind of behaviour, because for an elo system to be accurate it needs to have active players. It's based on people exchanging points, not on people doing nothing.
Forcing people to play qs, or using the max ep elo (since it's a recent system anyway), or having some sort of decay would be good steps towards fixing this problem.

And yeah, the elo also needs to be less punishing for good players, cause that's another issue.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

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