Announcing the $3000 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

Post by gibson »

princeofcarthage wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:
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Nice, complain about a tournament you weren't going to play in, REALLY USEFUL
Where do you see me complaining?
youve been whining about the beginners not getting money since the beginning
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

Post by princeofcarthage »

gibson wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:
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Where do you see me complaining?
youve been whining about the beginners not getting money since the beginning
That is not whining. I just said it once as suggestion. When people asked or replied I simply replied to them with my explanation.
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

Post by Cometk »

Refluxian wrote:
Cometk wrote:
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I’m still a bit confused where you take issue with the civilization rules.

For example, kynesie was able to make it to the Finals of the Autumn Championship 2018 using only Portuguese and Japan. He did win with a few other civs in earlier matches, but in his Semi-finals series with Raphael he won x2 with Portuguese and Japan and consequently earned a Finals slot. Do you think that would be preferable to the current rules, which require knowledge of at least 4 civilizations?
I don't really agree with this reasoning. Why is it bad that someone that is so good at Ports and Japan can win a tournament with them? You phrase it as if you're not at a disadvantage in the previous rules by playing only 2 civs. That is just straight up incorrect.

First of, you are at a disadvantage because your shallow civ pool allows your opponents to prepare better. I myself have experienced that it's so much harder to prepare against someone with a deep, unpredictable civ pool. You can't message a pro player to teach you how to do a certain build or something, because your opponent can basically do so much that it's impossible to target anything. This happened when I had to play umeu, I just didn't know what to prepare for. On the other hand, I have for example spend an entire week practising Aztec vs Japan and Russia vs Japan when I had to face KingofOsmane.

Secondly, you are at a disadvantage because you don't have the flexibility with counterpicking. This is a pretty big deal, your opponents can just first pick something that is good against your strong civs, so you can't actually counterpick. I am pretty known for mostly playing Dutch. Yet, despite being far more competent with them, in tournament settings I have very often elected to not even play them. That's because the counter pick system already favors you playing a variety of civs. Instead of playing the civ you're best with, you're already rewarded (or pushed) to play different civs. For example, I have played a BO5 against Look_Tom were I played India, Brits and Ports, or against Somppu I have played Ports/India/France/India/Otto. I can only recall one BO3 where I played Dutch twice, out of . There is so much incentive already to play different civs.

Then thirdly, in a BO5 you are forced to basically throw one game and in a BO7 you basically auto-lose 3 games. In the old system, you are at a huge disadvantage if you have a shallow civ pool. If someone can overcome these disadvantages and still win, that should be totally fine. Then he's just a good player and that should be rewarded - not punished even more.

And then I also disagree in a bigger picture. Why do we need to force people to play so many different civs? Many people enjoy this game by focussing on a few civs. I actually would argue the majority of the player base mains one or two civs and has only a few other civs they occasionally play. The proposed system goes out of its way to make life hard for people that enjoy experiencing aoe3 like this. Civ variety is fun to some extend, but at some point you're simply frustrating people into doing things they don't actually enjoy. What's wrong with a player being super good at two civs? I'd much rather see very specialized play than people just doing some all around strats, and it seems pretty clear to me that a lot of people prefer actually specializing with a few civs rather than being good across the board. And again, having a deep civ pool is already rewarded in three different ways!
Well, for one, I wasn't disagreeing with the point that civ rules that reward depth > width could be better than ones that reward the other way around. That's all it is, depth vs width. Both are valid and I firmly believe that. The Mono-civ tournaments were popular for a very good reason.

But what I don't understand, then, is Garja's assertion that the rules that reward civ width (the current civ rules) are "crap". I think it's demonstrable that that's not the case with the success of the LAN event. The NWC Qualifiers (current civ rules) had a record # of matchups played, over 90% of all possible matchups were played vs 65% from the Autumn Championship 2018 (old civ rules). It's pretty easy to see which rules are better for viewers, and they aren't as bad for the players as one might make them out to be.

Nothing takes away from kynesie's path to victory in the Autumn Championship 2018. He played well and earned a spot in the finals. It was a great tournament!
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

Post by Amsel_ »

I was thinking a few days ago that it had been awhile since the last seasonal tournament. Cool to see that it's tourney time again. I love the changes you made in regards to separating the tournament into three skill levels.
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

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Post by Dolan »

HeadKilla wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:Holy shit 2.5k
Yeah and that's USD not those crappy Deutsche Mark marks or whatever you use =)
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

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Post by tedere12 »

I might be signing up to reclaim my top 8 spot, unfortunately exams start a week after the tourney begins so I'll how things go and decide :P
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

Post by Dolan »

Tbh I'm happy for you guise, but I kinda got bored of AOE3. It's the same old players and same old strats. I guess you can squeeze only as much life out of a game, before it gets stale.

Too bad AOE4 doesn't look promising either.

The game was a lot more fun when the Japanese players were involved in the scene too.
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

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Post by Riotcoke »

Dolan wrote:Tbh I'm happy for you guise, but I kinda got bored of AOE3. It's the same old players and same old strats. I guess you can squeeze only as much life out of a game, before it gets stale.

Too bad AOE4 doesn't look promising either.

The game was a lot more fun when the Japanese players were involved in the scene too.
All you do is complain. Be happy.
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

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Post by kami_ryu »

Dolan wrote:Tbh I'm happy for you guise, but I kinda got bored of AOE3. It's the same old players and same old strats. I guess you can squeeze only as much life out of a game, before it gets stale.

Too bad AOE4 doesn't look promising either.

The game was a lot more fun when the Japanese players were involved in the scene too.
ok bye
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

Post by Dolan »

Riotcoke wrote:
Dolan wrote:Tbh I'm happy for you guise, but I kinda got bored of AOE3. It's the same old players and same old strats. I guess you can squeeze only as much life out of a game, before it gets stale.

Too bad AOE4 doesn't look promising either.

The game was a lot more fun when the Japanese players were involved in the scene too.
All you do is complain. Be happy.
You were not here when I was building things for other ppl to use with AOE3, I think. Whether it was maps, UI mods or other stuff (even contributed to a patch once). So no, all I did was not just to complain. But maybe you like a community of yesmen only.

AOE3 will still be my fav game ever, but I don't think I'll watch this one, this time.
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

Post by lordraphael »

Refluxian wrote:
n0el wrote:No, but when someone donates that much on condition of some rules being in place, why is it bad? Sure you can critique it, but in the end, its having that money or not. It isn't like its 100% ESOC discretion on picking formats and rules in situations like this.
Are you aware that nobody has said this money came from someone donating with this condition? You couldve just said that to begin with.

Anyways, theres still 500 zutazuta dollars right? It was just a tip, because the casters deserve to be rewarded.
pretty much this. lots of discussons could have been avoided if you just said from the start who donated that much money and that some special wishes were attached to the donation. As i said on the spankyou thread its perfectly fine if large donations come with some strings attached. just communicate it
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

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Post by Zutazuta »

Cometk wrote:
Zutazuta wrote:Can I put up another 500 to make it an even 3K? Also, signed up for my first ever ESOC tour - how many times am I allowed to play Japan per series?
ok :santa:
Done :santa:
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

Post by Cometk »

Zutazuta wrote:
Cometk wrote:
Zutazuta wrote:Can I put up another 500 to make it an even 3K? Also, signed up for my first ever ESOC tour - how many times am I allowed to play Japan per series?
ok :santa:
Done :santa:
madman :santa:
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

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Post by gibson »

Add the 500 to the winner of the intermediate division, aka straight to my pocket
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Re: Announcing the $3000 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

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Post by Zeke »

Great to see another Championship happens! It is really amazing. Lots of thanks to ESOC teams and donors!
Just have an idea about the argument for the prize pool. Instead of giving 5-8th of Pro division $100, maybe they could be dropped to the Advanced division just like the previous rounds. And the prize for them can be used to buff the prize in both Pro and Advanced division. Then there will be no discrepancy for prize here.
btw, could we have more coaching sessions to players (like the top 4 in Beginner division, even the ones in Intermediate if players wish)
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Re: Announcing the $3000 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

Post by Peshmerga12 »

Will players who cheated previously be able to participate? I am thinking of the prizepool.
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Re: Announcing the $3000 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Peshmerga12 wrote:Will players who cheated previously be able to participate? I am thinking of the prizepool.
No. Several players are barred from entry.
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Re: Announcing the $3000 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

Post by Peshmerga12 »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Peshmerga12 wrote:Will players who cheated previously be able to participate? I am thinking of the prizepool.
No. Several players are barred from entry.
Could you name them? If i would like to contribute i would like to know if you allow cheaters to play or not.
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

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Post by Goodspeed »

Dolan wrote:Tbh I'm happy for you guise, but I kinda got bored of AOE3. It's the same old players and same old strats. I guess you can squeeze only as much life out of a game, before it gets stale.
Enter EP7. The same old players, sure, but there's a good chance we'll see some changes in the meta.
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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Goodspeed wrote:
Dolan wrote:Tbh I'm happy for you guise, but I kinda got bored of AOE3. It's the same old players and same old strats. I guess you can squeeze only as much life out of a game, before it gets stale.
Enter EP7. The same old players, sure, but there's a good chance we'll see some changes in the meta.
A change isn't always an improvement, and EP7 is certainly not an improvement of the game.
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Re: Announcing the $3000 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

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Post by Goodspeed »

That's subjective and impossible to know at this point.
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Re: Announcing the $3000 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

Post by Cometk »

winter seeding sneak peek

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Re: Announcing the $2500 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

Post by Victor_swe »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
Dolan wrote:Tbh I'm happy for you guise, but I kinda got bored of AOE3. It's the same old players and same old strats. I guess you can squeeze only as much life out of a game, before it gets stale.
Enter EP7. The same old players, sure, but there's a good chance we'll see some changes in the meta.
A change isn't always an improvement, and EP7 is certainly not an improvement of the game.
I dont see what can be changed so that it looks like u feel its worse than re patch? Are there several big changes or is something really major changing? What have i missed?

Edit: i dont really know anything about EP7
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Re: Announcing the $3000 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

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Post by Veni_Vidi_Vici_W »

Cometk wrote:I don't think that's really necessary. The Pro Division is already $1800 — more than even the most lucrative tournament of ESOC past — and requires the fewest amount of matches played from our top players (and consequence of this fact, we can expect some very high quality games). A pre-qualified player in the Pro Division only needs to win a single match to be entitled to some of the tournament prize pool, something that has never been the case before in an ESOC tournament.
- Sure the amount is higher which is always good. But you look at absolute amounts, I look at prize distribution relatively as a standard method.
- True about only having to win one single match to be awarded a prize. This is not something I was arguing about :) Though you could still say that if the prize for the pros would be a bit higher relative to the rest, these players might put in more effort to win or get to top8. I.e stimulating top players to put more effort in new strats etc, which is ultimately what you want and need with this game right now. And which will also benefit the next category of players below pro.
Cometk wrote:I'm not sure that it is. There isn't a strong incentive to do this because the only person earning more than a Pro Division player is the winner of the Advanced Division - a single player, compared to the Top 8 from the Pro Division. To put it into perspective, all of these players had less than a Top 8 seed in the Autumn Championship 2018: snowww, kynesie, SomppuKunkku, PrinceofKabul, Conquerer999, IAmSoldieR, Lukas_L99, tabben, iamturk, & Lecastete.
- No? 2nd of advanced earns 100 which is same as 5-8th of pro. 3rd Earns 80 which is almost same :P
- Regarding players and who falls in which category and thus how many 'pros' put into the advanced division. This depends on the signups of players and their ratings.
Cometk wrote:As Bramboy has pointed out, we've set the bar quite high for integrity in ESOC events, and by now players should be aware of the consequences of tournament tomfoolery. I can give you my personal guarantee of "no bullshit allowed". ;)
Ok. I have faith in you. And dont get me wrong, the tournament is great of course, just providing feedback for improvements for another time.
HeadKilla wrote:I wanted to pay out more people while also giving amazing support to the top. I gave ESOC two choices, pay out more people at the lower level or don't accept my donation.
Donating is generous and nice for the community, but you know this is called blackmail right? If I may, I'd suggest requiring Sompu to come to the studio of the next LAN with 2 girls by his side in return for another donation.
HeadKilla wrote:I have been repeatedly warned about people losing on purpose to claim an easier prize. Not much we can do about it but trust in our software and the team to help eliminate these assholes and preserve the integrity of the event.
- What you can do about it is create a system where this is not an option or avoided as much as possible.
- Idk why you call them assholes. If you create a system like this, then you cant blame people for getting the most out of it within the 'rules'. Its the same as people abusing stupid shit in tournaments to just win it, rather than playing a good game. Or you trying to file your taxes in such a way that you can pay as less as possible to the government.
gibson wrote: wrote:
Its standard in esports that 5-8th place in a tier 1 tourney makes less than 1st place in a tier 2 tourney. Not sure why everyone is whining about incentivising people who arent top players to play and improve.
- Why present this as a fact when it seems not to be the case? Liquipedia source: when SC2 had code A and code S, 5-8th of code S (tier 1) got more than top of Code a (tier 2). For COD if you compare the tier 1 tournament to tier 2, its the same. (The biggest in tier 1 vs the biggest in tier 2, or the others in tier 1 vs the others in tier 2).
- Plus even if most do it this way or that way, doesnt mean it should be done the same here. As I mentioned above, this community could use new builds and strats, and they are more likely to come from pros than from not (yet) pros. Where indeed (extra) money tends to be an incentive.
- Your second comment seems also invalid. The people who aren't top players already get paid in the advanced, intermediate and beginner divisions Regardless of what is done with 5-8th of Advanced.
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Re: Announcing the $3000 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

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Post by flontier »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Peshmerga12 wrote:Will players who cheated previously be able to participate? I am thinking of the prizepool.
No. Several players are barred from entry.
They will organize a smurf touney especially for them (great name in that, kynesie, tit, sirmusket etc..) since its very easy to organize like we already dont know who is playing on their account when they play in normal tourney.

I can already see that amazing final : tit on sirmusket account vs kynesie on tit account killing each other without knowing who is who.

And sirmusket fighting for the third place against garja.
Sirmusket would spawns lazer bear to deny garja tresor but garja coutering him by saying "yo lets drop one".

Then lets not forget about outsiders like cassador33 and his scared india cdb boom.
hmm so yeah there is a lot of matter here to have an interesting tourney.

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