No Flag RefluxSemantic
Howdah
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12 Jan 2020, 22:37

Goodspeed wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:
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First, do you admit that Old Han Reforms units are not actually OP in the long term?
I never disagreed with that. Like I said, the fact that treaty players tend not to use old han in late game pretty clearly shows that FU old han isn't better than FU alternatives.
Secondly, read this post (https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... 44#p411707) and then I'd be interested in hearing if you would agree that this shows that, while old han reforms is a pretty good shipment, it's nowhere near broken and especially not an auto win button, assuming that it doesn't actually make old han units OP in the long term (which both tests and maths prove).
I don't agree that it shows that.

Why not? Its all in there.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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12 Jan 2020, 22:43

Old han was op because the China FI is op. It's just like Japan imo, if you give your opponent too much time he's going to have a crazy timing. Most civs have an op unit (yumis, cuirs, sepoys, brs, erk, upgraded fp, strels, 20 range goons are just as good as old han although they're a different unit), the issue is that China has an insane eco if you include the export and the free units and a great timing with the old han shipment.
Also, you can make artillery against old han but people barely ever train artillery for some reasons...
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Latvia harcha
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12 Jan 2020, 22:48

@Diarouga well you can't really mass age 4 artillery that fast and age 3 artillery kinda sucks against all the melee options china has (and the inf crows)
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France [Armag] diarouga
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12 Jan 2020, 22:55

harcha wrote:@Diarouga well you can't really mass age 4 artillery that fast and age 3 artillery kinda sucks against all the melee options china has (and the inf crows)

That's true. However, if you miss your window to punish China for going FI and old han (that's like a 2min window), China should get a 2-3 min window to punish you (which is the time you need to train cannons).

If old han was an auto win (although greedy), that would be broken but in practice old han can be punished by a timing, and then you can win in late game with most civs if you survive the old han timing.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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12 Jan 2020, 22:58

RefluxSemantic wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
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I never disagreed with that. Like I said, the fact that treaty players tend not to use old han in late game pretty clearly shows that FU old han isn't better than FU alternatives.
Secondly, read this post (https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... 44#p411707) and then I'd be interested in hearing if you would agree that this shows that, while old han reforms is a pretty good shipment, it's nowhere near broken and especially not an auto win button, assuming that it doesn't actually make old han units OP in the long term (which both tests and maths prove).
I don't agree that it shows that.
Why not? Its all in there.
It doesn't come close to proving it for many reasons. But like I said, I don't really feel like getting into detail here. If you have questions I can answer in a few sentences I'll answer them, but here you're asking me to pick apart your arguments, which is a tedious process and will take many paragraphs.
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Italy Garja
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12 Jan 2020, 23:23

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Old han was op because the China FI is op. It's just like Japan imo, if you give your opponent too much time he's going to have a crazy timing. Most civs have an op unit (yumis, cuirs, sepoys, brs, erk, upgraded fp, strels, 20 range goons are just as good as old han although they're a different unit), the issue is that China has an insane eco if you include the export and the free units and a great timing with the old han shipment.
Also, you can make artillery against old han but people barely ever train artillery for some reasons...

No old han is OP because it's a 100% boost to a unit.
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13 Jan 2020, 00:17

Goodspeed wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:
Show hidden quotes
First, do you admit that Old Han Reforms units are not actually OP in the long term?
I never disagreed with that. Like I said, the fact that treaty players tend not to use old han in late game pretty clearly shows that FU old han isn't better than FU alternatives.

nah you go old han in treaty until you're out of wood
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Australia Kawapasaka
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13 Jan 2020, 00:20

I tried Old Han in treaty once, got annihilated in 2 mins by full Cuir :mrgreen:
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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13 Jan 2020, 09:06

Cometk wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
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I never disagreed with that. Like I said, the fact that treaty players tend not to use old han in late game pretty clearly shows that FU old han isn't better than FU alternatives.

nah you go old han in treaty until you're out of wood
Oh. I remember being told once by a good treaty player that it falls off post-imp. Guess I was misinformed, or misremembered.
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13 Jan 2020, 09:16

harcha wrote:@Diarouga well you can't really mass age 4 artillery that fast and age 3 artillery kinda sucks against all the melee options china has (and the inf crows)

Brits could themselves FI and send 3 rockets while having 50 musk at 12 mins, that should beat old han
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Latvia harcha
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13 Jan 2020, 09:36

Goodspeed wrote:
Cometk wrote:
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nah you go old han in treaty until you're out of wood
Oh. I remember being told once by a good treaty player that it falls off. Guess I was misinformed.

piki are less effective in treaty because you have to worry more about population efficiency and also the usual aoe3 bs with melee units and big fights. and yet in the tr20 tourney we saw a decent ammount of old han
Latvia harcha
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13 Jan 2020, 09:40

princeofcarthage wrote:
harcha wrote:@Diarouga well you can't really mass age 4 artillery that fast and age 3 artillery kinda sucks against all the melee options china has (and the inf crows)

Brits could themselves FI and send 3 rockets while having 50 musk at 12 mins, that should beat old han

this is true. but what gets you is that you realize opponent is going old han reforms only at like 9 minutes when he is III and not making military. at this point it is already too late to go FI for the rockets. and if you did manage to do FI for musk rocket, china might just do a switcheroo and instead ship arques + crows to fk ur musk up anyway. the threat of old han reforms is enough to get you...
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France [Armag] diarouga
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13 Jan 2020, 11:22

harcha wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:
harcha wrote:@Diarouga well you can't really mass age 4 artillery that fast and age 3 artillery kinda sucks against all the melee options china has (and the inf crows)

Brits could themselves FI and send 3 rockets while having 50 musk at 12 mins, that should beat old han

this is true. but what gets you is that you realize opponent is going old han reforms only at like 9 minutes when he is III and not making military. at this point it is already too late to go FI for the rockets. and if you did manage to do FI for musk rocket, china might just do a switcheroo and instead ship arques + crows to fk ur musk up anyway. the threat of old han reforms is enough to get you...

So China is taking a risk by getting old han and going for a brit FI is a risk as well.
That seems fair.
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13 Jan 2020, 11:42

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
harcha wrote:
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this is true. but what gets you is that you realize opponent is going old han reforms only at like 9 minutes when he is III and not making military. at this point it is already too late to go FI for the rockets. and if you did manage to do FI for musk rocket, china might just do a switcheroo and instead ship arques + crows to fk ur musk up anyway. the threat of old han reforms is enough to get you...

So China is taking a risk by getting old han and going for a brit FI is a risk as well.
That seems fair.

Give it up clémént. Even if you are %100 true, they will do what they want
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Latvia harcha
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13 Jan 2020, 11:51

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
harcha wrote:
Show hidden quotes

this is true. but what gets you is that you realize opponent is going old han reforms only at like 9 minutes when he is III and not making military. at this point it is already too late to go FI for the rockets. and if you did manage to do FI for musk rocket, china might just do a switcheroo and instead ship arques + crows to fk ur musk up anyway. the threat of old han reforms is enough to get you...

So China is taking a risk by getting old han and going for a brit FI is a risk as well.
That seems fair.

ive played mostly jap and france, and i learned to deal with old han reforms or the threat of it. i'm not in the "nuke this card" camp, but i do think that it was op
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Howdah
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13 Jan 2020, 12:43

Goodspeed wrote:
Cometk wrote:
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nah you go old han in treaty until you're out of wood
Oh. I remember being told once by a good treaty player that it falls off post-imp. Guess I was misinformed.

Its probably because in treaty pop efficiency becomes relevant, so despite not being extremely cost effective old han is extremely pop effective.

Its true that in Imperial OHR is even worse though. I also think (not completely sure) that arqs and changdaos scale off of fortress stats, so their imperial and guard upgrades are quite a bit stronger too, closing the gap between them and Old Han even more. (If scaling off of base vet stats, imperial arqs would get effectively a 16% stat boost at imperial).
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Howdah
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13 Jan 2020, 12:55

Goodspeed wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:
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Why not? Its all in there.
It doesn't come close to proving it for many reasons. But like I said, I don't really feel like getting into detail here. If you have questions I can answer in a few sentences I'll answer them, but here you're asking me to pick apart your arguments, which is a tedious process and will take many paragraphs.

Then let me lower myself to your level.

I think Im right and you are wrong.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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13 Jan 2020, 13:01

Another way to express that sentiment is to say we "agree to disagree". And that's okay. I know you have a lot of time invested in this discussion and your mathematical analysis of the card, so I get that you want to drag everyone into it (and can relate, see my thread about VC), but I'm just not interested. I didn't mean to offend you.
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26 Feb 2020, 14:39

I have an idea for the next EP iteration concerning replays and Aizamks UI. Would it be possible to make replays rewindable? So you can watch a specific thing several times in a row. Sorry if this is the wrong forum, dunno where to post this.
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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26 Feb 2020, 15:56

Scroogie wrote:I have an idea for the next EP iteration concerning replays and Aizamks UI. Would it be possible to make replays rewindable? So you can watch a specific thing several times in a row. Sorry if this is the wrong forum, dunno where to post this.
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Unfortunately, this is technically impossible. First, you have to understand that a recorded game file is not a video, not even remotely. Think of it more like a log of what instructions happened in the match; "this villager was directed to build a house" and so on.

So, all that you have is this huge list of instructions saying who did what. And what happens when you are watching a recorded game? Well, the game is absolutely literally being re-played, except instead of moving units around yourself, they are receiving instructions in sequence as read from the recorded game file.

At this point, you hopefully can see where this is going. There is no way to ever play a recorded game file as a video, because when it comes down to it, it is just a bunch of text instructions that don't mean anything outside of how the AoE3 game engine understands them and is able to re-play the whole match. The way "play fast" works is that it simply executes instructions from the log faster, based on how fast your CPU can handle running the game / executing game commands. The game engine cannot easily "rewind" a match to any custom point in time, as the only way to do that would be starting over from the beginning; reload the map and execute all commands which led to that desired point. And that is exactly what you have to do yourself now as well, just reload the rec from start; there is not really an other way. What we have done on EP is the addition of replay speed factor dropdown, which allows you to attempt to "overload" your CPU by a higher factor and possibly speed up command execution beyond what the regular game version offers - allowing you to get into a specific time point faster.
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Howdah
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26 Feb 2020, 16:02

Is it not theoretically possible to 'undo' the commands that happened between the point where you want to go back to and the point where you are at?
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European Union Scroogie
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26 Feb 2020, 16:24

EAGLEMUT wrote:
Scroogie wrote:I have an idea for the next EP iteration concerning replays and Aizamks UI. Would it be possible to make replays rewindable? So you can watch a specific thing several times in a row. Sorry if this is the wrong forum, dunno where to post this.
@EAGLEMUT
@Aizamk

Unfortunately, this is technically impossible. First, you have to understand that a recorded game file is not a video, not even remotely. Think of it more like a log of what instructions happened in the match; "this villager was directed to build a house" and so on.

So, all that you have is this huge list of instructions saying who did what. And what happens when you are watching a recorded game? Well, the game is absolutely literally being re-played, except instead of moving units around yourself, they are receiving instructions in sequence as read from the recorded game file.

At this point, you hopefully can see where this is going. There is no way to ever play a recorded game file as a video, because when it comes down to it, it is just a bunch of text instructions that don't mean anything outside of how the AoE3 game engine understands them and is able to re-play the whole match. The way "play fast" works is that it simply executes instructions from the log faster, based on how fast your CPU can handle running the game / executing game commands. The game engine cannot easily "rewind" a match to any custom point in time, as the only way to do that would be starting over from the beginning; reload the map and execute all commands which led to that desired point. And that is exactly what you have to do yourself now as well, just reload the rec from start; there is not really an other way. What we have done on EP is the addition of replay speed factor dropdown, which allows you to attempt to "overload" your CPU by a higher factor and possibly speed up command execution beyond what the regular game version offers - allowing you to get into a specific time point faster.

I see, thank you for the detailed explanation. Hopefully this will be implemented in DE.
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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26 Feb 2020, 16:26

RefluxSemantic wrote:Is it not theoretically possible to 'undo' the commands that happened between the point where you want to go back to and the point where you are at?

In theory, it could be possible if the engine was initially designed to account for this and had a way to undo commands to return to a previous state. As it stands, "saving" a specific game state is a very expensive operation in AoE3, and while I'm not sure how "undo" in the scenario editor works, I know it's barely functional at all and often "forgets" what happened.
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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26 Feb 2020, 16:32

Scroogie wrote:I see, thank you for the detailed explanation. Hopefully this will be implemented in DE.

Honestly, I wouldn't expect it. It is a tough issue to deal with, and it wasn't changed even in AoE2. Not to mention even some other games larger than AoE use the same system for recorded games, because it is relatively simple to implement and results in very small filesizes of the rec files.
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Howdah
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26 Feb 2020, 16:43

It's definitely possible to do though. I'm pretty sure sc2 uses the exact same functionality, except that they have the ability to also 'undo' moves. It's actually a funny system, if you go back only a little bit it will simply rewind moves, but if you go back a lot I think it determines that it is faster to just play from start very quickly up to the point where you want to go.

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