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Canada Mitoe
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09 Dec 2019, 22:14

IAmSoldieR wrote:This is when people start to realize China can skip 700w shipment, especially with tower age up...

Just because they can doesn’t mean it’s good to do so. It’s a last resort.
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France Rikikipu
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09 Dec 2019, 22:20

If only there were as many people playing EP as the ones discussing EP...
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Italy Garja
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09 Dec 2019, 23:14

What do people mean with skipping 700w? You can 700g 700w without a TP.
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United States of America IAmSoldieR
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09 Dec 2019, 23:18

Ya, you can also 700g, 5 meteor and gather for buildings as you just ship units
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09 Dec 2019, 23:22

Garja wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:The difference is that China NEEDS a TP or a 2nd village in age 1.
With most nilla civs, you get a TP or a market depending on the crate start.
With China however you get a TP or nothing depending on the crate start.

The conclusion is that China is much more affected by a crate start because a nilla civ will go TP age 1 then market on wood start and market in age 1 and TP in transition while China will either get a TP or no TP.

Do you realise that you can't even ship a military shipment in age 2 because you have no 700w shipment then ? China probably can't win against a rush or a musk/huss timing on food start lol.

Nah the civ doesnt need it. And anyway can always get it with the two wood starts and can get a market with the 100g start. On the food start you age a bit earlier so you net about 50w and build the TP in transition to colo, if you chose so. It's the same as other civs.


It's funny how among all the changes the China crate one actually makes some sense, despite being of course game changing.

I am baffled at how the building restriction thing for TPs made through the change list and how it did so quickly. It's such a 1) nonsense change 2) bad for balance 3) basically none advocates for it

Remove the building restriction for TP is another huge nonsense.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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09 Dec 2019, 23:24

IAmSoldieR wrote:This is when people start to realize China can skip 700w shipment, especially with tower age up...

No you can't. Then you have no eco and your timing sucks so you lose. Even against an all in you can barely skip 700w, so against a musk/huss semi there is no way you can do it.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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09 Dec 2019, 23:25

Garja wrote:What do people mean with skipping 700w? You can 700g 700w without a TP.

Yes but can't do 700c/unit/700w against rushes.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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09 Dec 2019, 23:27

Rikikipu wrote:If only there were as many people playing EP as the ones discussing EP...

If only Zoi tested his changes before implementing them...

I'm actually serious, why should we test a change when literally 100% of the top players disagree with it ?
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09 Dec 2019, 23:38

You can maybe skip 700w as china if you get up 2 villages at the start of the game.

I have no idea how you want to skip 700w on a 200w start though.. Then you end up having /30 pop space, no military buildings or anything.. Seems pretty ridiculous.
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09 Dec 2019, 23:41

Well to be fair everyone could test the beta all the time. Problem is just that when there's tourneys going on, people play on the patch where the tourney is played, and don't bother testing. Plus laziness.

About china, you can get a TP in transition, which is not as good as early TP ofc, but still kinda does the job. Keep in mind that if you can't early TP, it means that 1) your opponent also doesn't have a wood start 2) you start with 300f so you age earlier 3) you don't chop 100w so you age even earlier.
I think we just need to figure out the right builds on these starts. For example, since you're gonna age earlier to colo but also gonna chop for a TP, maybe you want to have only 2 vils on the wonder now instead of 4.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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09 Dec 2019, 23:44

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:What do people mean with skipping 700w? You can 700g 700w without a TP.

Yes but can't do 700c/unit/700w against rushes.

Ye that's why you go 700g/unit. Also against some "rushes" you just defend with mm etc. so you can still 700g/700w. Also you can always have a TP anyway, just a bit later. So you can always 700g/unit/700w vs a real rush since you will age later anyway.
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09 Dec 2019, 23:45

RefluxSemantic wrote:You can maybe skip 700w as china if you get up 2 villages at the start of the game.

I have no idea how you want to skip 700w on a 200w start though.. Then you end up having /30 pop space, no military buildings or anything.. Seems pretty ridiculous.

You're going to chop for village/TP/whatover even with 100f or 100g strats.
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09 Dec 2019, 23:46

When you plan on doing huge changes that need to be tested, but it turns out nobody will actually play on a beta, then you shouldn't blame the people for not playing on the beta, you should blame yourself for having a scope of the project that is to big.
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09 Dec 2019, 23:47

Garja wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:You can maybe skip 700w as china if you get up 2 villages at the start of the game.

I have no idea how you want to skip 700w on a 200w start though.. Then you end up having /30 pop space, no military buildings or anything.. Seems pretty ridiculous.

You're going to chop for village/TP/whatover even with 100f or 100g strats.

You seriously want to chop 200w? China already ages up at 5:00.. You'd be aging at 5:30 if not later.
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09 Dec 2019, 23:50

God I missed so much those discussions between jerom and Garja
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09 Dec 2019, 23:51

RefluxSemantic wrote:
Garja wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:You can maybe skip 700w as china if you get up 2 villages at the start of the game.

I have no idea how you want to skip 700w on a 200w start though.. Then you end up having /30 pop space, no military buildings or anything.. Seems pretty ridiculous.

You're going to chop for village/TP/whatover even with 100f or 100g strats.

You seriously want to chop 200w? China already ages up at 5:00.. You'd be aging at 5:30 if not later.


I'm talking about in transition to colo. By the way China should never age later than 4.40 if you eat the goat. With the food crate now you age at 4.20 if you still use 4 vills (which I doubt it's a good choice).
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09 Dec 2019, 23:54

RefluxSemantic wrote:When you plan on doing huge changes that need to be tested, but it turns out nobody will actually play on a beta, then you shouldn't blame the people for not playing on the beta, you should blame yourself for having a scope of the project that is to big.

then i suppose ep7.0.0.0 is the new beta :) it's not as if changes can't be reverted or tweaked, among other things to respond to balance concerns as they develop in the metagame
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France Kaiserklein
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10 Dec 2019, 00:00

I'd just advise people to actually play the new China before jumping on conclusions. To me it doesn't seem like they're unplayable at all with -100w. Really just need to figure out the proper builds on different starts.
Ah, now China is gonna take some skill in age 1 cause you'll have to adapt to the crates start. What a shame!
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Iran n0el
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10 Dec 2019, 00:06

Im less concerned about that than I am their strength on the 300f/w start. It’s insane. We are entering back j to TAD launch territory which is why they fixed the crates.
SirCallen wrote:Just drink the beer as it is, you hipsters.
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France Kaiserklein
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10 Dec 2019, 00:07

Yea I agree, 300w 300f could be really scary. But then your opponent also gets 100f 100w so idk.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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10 Dec 2019, 00:15

If you would have asked me in 2015, when I was implementing the first version of EP, I would have imagined we would be "done" with balance changes by now.

I'd like to see EP on a path of making increasingly minor tweaks to reach steady state where balance is "good enough".
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10 Dec 2019, 00:40

Kaiserklein wrote:Ah, now China is gonna take some skill in age 1 cause you'll have to adapt to the crates start. What a shame!


I think the issue is that -100w makes adapting in transition and early age 2 that much harder. China is a slow and reactive civ, so lacking the flexibility of a unit shipment and/or extra pop space means game-losing over or under-commitments to colonial. I'd like to see some builds for 200w as well for sure but I don't see China faring very well against aggression on that start. Having to chose between chopping for a tp in transition or chopping for enough pop space to ship units sounds like it's really gonna suck.

Scouting is also not easy with a civ that cannot afford to lose its explorer out of base, so instantly losing the game because you didn't catch a sidestable or something doesn't sound very fun.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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10 Dec 2019, 08:26

musketeer925 wrote:If you would have asked me in 2015, when I was implementing the first version of EP, I would have imagined we would be "done" with balance changes by now.

I'd like to see EP on a path of making increasingly minor tweaks to reach steady state where balance is "good enough".

Exactly. This patch is destroying 4 years of balance work.
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10 Dec 2019, 10:56

First, for those of you who haven't already done so, I highly recommend reading the changes comments, found towards the end of the OP, in a spoiler. This will help in understanding some of the changes' rationale.

Although it's a pity that there wasn't more participation (ie input and testing), during the lengthy beta – in spite of unprecedented incentive and opportunity, as well as direct invitation – feedback remains as helpful as ever, and I remain committed to making improvements, based on it. As you might imagine, this depends on the availability of constructive feedback, so please keep sharing it! Tweaks of potential urgent balance issues, prior to the winter tournament, are entirely realistic.

Also speaking of feedback: we're aware of an issue regarding waypoints, which will be resolved as soon as possible.

I read all posts, in these threads, and in the EP forums, and will reply to as many as possible, where meaningful.

Thank you all for your response!
Effective ESOC Patch notes

Blue-haired girl being slain

'This is no declaration, I just thought I'd let you know goodbye'
Said the hero in the story
'It is mightier than swords. I could kill you sure, but I could only make you cry with these words'
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10 Dec 2019, 11:00

Lecastete wrote:Excellent job fixing bugs and treasure balance gonna be a real change about the game, i'm sure everybody agrees with this.

A few points I would like to mention regarding general balance and that's only my opinion
Now, "The Exiled Prince" (and Fortress Age "The Messenger") have been nerfed by 5s, and the alternatives buffed by 5s. Not only does this help balance the option(s) – it also makes The Messenger consistent across ages, which serves to indicate how overpowered the Exiled Prince was.

About the minor native TP trickle change (from the OP): "This change will improve minor native viability, as well as the viability of TP-dependent civilizations, on 0TP maps."

Cover mode is a basic feature of the Aztec War Chief and Chinese Shaolin Master. Content should only be removed as a last resort. Do you realize that the actual exploits (ie cover mode bug, and heal dance bug) have been fixed? Now that it is working as intended, why should it be removed?

Chinese is going to be more balanced, and have more options. Again, from the OP:

"Currently, depending entirely on the crate start, Chinese can be up (or down) 100 resources—a 200 resource swing. Necessarily, this is a major balance issue for the civilization, making it impossible to balance. Now, that won't be the case anymore, which will automatically make the civilization more balanced – and allow it to be balanced, in the first place. For more details, please see this post."

Random is the last word I would use to describe these changes. Like most everything, they are subject to updates, based on reception, too. We must be wary of knee-jerk overreactions, though.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

Blue-haired girl being slain

'This is no declaration, I just thought I'd let you know goodbye'
Said the hero in the story
'It is mightier than swords. I could kill you sure, but I could only make you cry with these words'

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