ESOC Patch 7.0.0.0 released!

[Garja]

You do FF vs those civs, even tho it's probably going to be a semi FF. You can also do colonial stuff imo and more likely on EP than on RE.
As long as it's changes with only balance implication it is fine. China isn't even supposed to have quick shipment rate in colonial. It's just a consequence of TP meta really.

[Davy_Jones_123]

The more you still close to RE, the less you will attract new players or make old players come back.
AOE3 have bad reputation, you have to prove it has changed will REAL change to make people mind different about the game and give it a try.

Its very sad for the success of aoe3DE if we stay too close to REshit just for the confort of few players that doesnt want all of their knowledge about strategies lost and having to re-adapt cause they have no brain.

At least they don't surrended.

[harcha]

I'm dissapointed with this EP. I think this is going a bit far from the original patch. Since most of the players on ESO are using RE and when they watch the tournament videos, they won't understand the game if you put changes like you did for China. 200w start, 5% hp buff, like wtf? Having only 1 shipment in age 2 just suck and you can't deal with civ like russia and india if they rush. Keshik and Steppe don't do shit against them .

I see your problem. Have you tried ff?

You don't ff vs Russia or Inida. Even if you build a TP in transition, they still get the map control and destroy the TP after a few mins and there's nothing you can do about it.

It seems like your china is not working properly. Have you tried turning it off and turning it back on again?

[dansil92]

I think china's Early colonial is greatly underrated. It certainly is not a *prolonged* colonial civ, but they have extremely good military shipments, explorer that trains pseudo cav, chukonu compete with macehualtin in efficiency, etc.
While they almost never win games in colonial they can do some serious damage or hold a lot of pressure. This coin start would be good for colonial builds to be explored

[[Armag] diarouga]

I think china's Early colonial is greatly underrated. It certainly is not a *prolonged* colonial civ, but they have extremely good military shipments, explorer that trains pseudo cav, chukonu compete with macehualtin in efficiency, etc.
While they almost never win games in colonial they can do some serious damage or hold a lot of pressure. This coin start would be good for colonial builds to be explored

True but your opponent will either have a better late colo (Brit, Russia, Otto etc) and playing age 2 will just give him some free time to improve his colonial army or age (fre, ger etc) and then what was the point of playing colo for a while instead of just ffing ?

[Mitoe]

- the effect most esoc maps have on gameplay. Mapscrews suck, but every civ having 3+ safe hunts and 2+ safe mines makes the game boring as fuck.

This is something I have been actively speaking up about for years. The problem here is not so much the patch team or map makers, but the community. Every time a new map is introduced that isn't "standard" or is very unique, players go absolutely berserk about how "shit" the map is instead of adapting. This has dis-incentivized anyone from making more unique or non-standard maps as frequently as well as made it more acceptable to simply avoid non-standard maps.

- the attempts to 'fix' spain. Spain's RE gameplay is very unique and there is no civ like it. Instead of slightly buffing their main strategy to make up for the fact that they were to weak, EP seems to want to turn them into a generic eco FF civ. I dislike that. More than half of the civs already play a generic FF style, let Spain be unique and actually be good at that.

I think you're a bit delusional here. The only thing that made them more of an "eco civ" was Spanish Gold, which is often not worth sending or very risky. Every single other change has only improved their strength overall as well as their main "RE" gameplay. Much better unit shipments, faster age up time, etc. Perhaps you're perceiving them more as an eco civ because of the prevalence of ATP, which has nothing to do with EP itself.

- The attempts to make Otto more generic. Otto is one of the few civs that has to rely on very strong units and a strong start to remain competitive. This is a unique niche that they have. All changes to Otto have mostly diminished this. I liked playing as Otto knowing that I was on a bit of a timer and I likes playing against them knowing that they were on a timer. I dislike how EP has reduces this unique aspect of otto.

Don't really see how any of the changes has made Otto more "generic," but ok.

- I actually dislike how EP nerfed the only two real FI strats in the game into the ground. Japan FI was pretty unique on RE and quite possibly my favorite strat of all time. Its dead on EP. China Old han was one of my favorite things to pull off. Its also dead on EP.

Old Han was absolutely broken and needed to be nerfed. It was an instant win card if you got to send it. It's still a decent card despite the fact that it's rarely sent right now. It can be great in certain situations (like vs water play) where you want to be super aggressive all game long in Industrial and not need to worry about making as many rice paddies when your gold mines run out. It maybe could use a small buff right now, however.

The Japanese change annoyed me. Not because it was unwarranted (it was slightly too strong, and should have been nerfed, but not as hard as it was), but because it's still listed as a "bug fix" and not a balance change despite it's massive impact on Age 4 Japan. While I understand that it may have been a bug, it's so impactful as a balance change that it should absolutely be listed as such. Same with the deck change. Just 2 huge changes for Japan on EP that aren't considered to be balance changes.

[princeofcarthage]

If you can go age 4 at 11 mins and afford to spend 1000 resources for a shipment. It pretty much has to give you instant win. Its more of an issue in how opponent deals rather than card itself being op. Not saying a slight nerf wouldn't have helped.

[Kaiserklein]

If you can go age 4 at 11 mins and afford to spend 1000 resources for a shipment. It pretty much has to give you instant win. Its more of an issue in how opponent deals rather than card itself being op. Not saying a slight nerf wouldn't have helped.

Reaching age 4 and spending 1000f on a shipment when you probably have fat livestock, when opponent went to fortress himself (giving you more time), when you're able to pop intervention or whatever other strong unit shipment while aging to indus, +12 skirms from age up and the other free shit, when opponent is afraid of units popping at any point from any village or tc... It's not all that hard in a lot of match ups.

I'm not saying you could automatically send old han every time, but let's not act as if managing to ship it should mean insta win lol.

[Hazza54321]

why is german nerfed on non tp but barely touched on tp, keep the smart changes coming!

[RefluxSemantic]

@Mitoe

With Spain I said 'attempts to fix spain' with which I intended to mostly refer to the spanish gold and missionaries shit. I called it an attempt because it had fortunately mostly been unsuccesful. But for a number of iterations of ep spain has been weak with only fixes that didnt actually target their real strats (meaning spanish gold and missionary changes).

The otto changes mostly refer to the fact that the mosque upgrade changes (to me, design wise the upgrade to villager training time are too cheap) and the silk road changes to compensate for nerfing all their units. To me this is an attempt to move otto away from their RE style.

Maybe Old Han was OP. Although any evidence of that is completely missing, given that it didnt dominate high level or tournament play at all. But even if you somehow considered it OP, the nerf was way over the top. Same with the nerf to Japan's FI, which agains seemed hardly OP yet was nerfed into the fucking ground.

[Mitoe]

I don’t really even know what to say to you about Old Han. Ask any top player and I’m sure they’ll tell you it is broken on RE. The reason you wouldn’t see it every game is simply because it’s not always possible to go age 4, but when you could it was essentially not possible to lose once you’ve sent that card. Age 4 China on EP is still very strong and there are plenty of games in which we see the Chinese FI succeed quite easily.

[dansil92]

Having just recently lost to an re old han, as a player with twice the eco better composition and map control, it is and was essentially unbeatable unless you have like 6 heavy cannons

[vividlyplain]

Having just recently lost to an re old han, as a player with twice the eco better composition and map control, it is and was essentially unbeatable unless you have like 6 heavy cannons

just ship 26 rattans and delete those heavies

[Hazza54321]

Having age 6 units in age 4 seems quite good to me but thats just my opinion

[RefluxSemantic]

You can't evaluate balance in a vacuum. There are countless things that are super OP in a vacuum. Letting someone get 4 stagecoached TPs uncontested is OP. Letting Dutch get 5 banks, all market upgrades and all infrastructures uncontested is basically unbeatable, letting someone water boom uncontested is basically unbeatable, letting Japan boom as much as they want and go to age 4 is unbeatable, and yes letting someone get to age 4 uncontested and then ship all the old han units they decide and then ship old han reforms with a bunch of CKN/Qiang Pikemen is OP. The thing is that there's no reason you should let them get that far.

And that statement is backed up by actual evidence: Hardly any competitive China games ended with them going to age 4, shipping Old Han Reforms and winning the game. China wasn't even the most played civ. So in practice it wasn't OP, because you could actually play around it.

Also I never denied that Old Han Reforms was an extremely strong shipment. I complained that I disliked that it was nerfed so hard that it might as well not exist. For a civ to be able to go to age 4, it needs to get some serious payoff. Normally going to age 4 is just suicide, and even factories aren't enough of a payoff. The only civs that could semi reliably go age 4 were Japan (because of the 1600xp wonder), China (because of Old Han reforms) and to some extend India (because of how insane Urumi are) and I suppose Otto can fast revolt, even though that's not viable. Old Han Reforms was nerfed so hard that it's not even a thing anymore, and I miss that. I miss foolishly going age 4 and getting punished for it. It could, and imo should, have been nerfed way less than it and that's what I was complaining about. Because right now it wasn't just a balance change, it ended up being mostly a design change; The patch team didn't like a strat so they effectively removed it from the game.

[dansil92]

"Strat"
Here ship 42 age 6 units that includes xbows that kill cav and pikes that beat musks and skirms itss reallllly balanced.

Old han needed a nerf. It was a free win. Yes going IV is risky but it shouldn't hand you a free win, no other civ gets a free win card. Fast revolt from spain/otto, Dutch stadhouders, russian 4 heavy cannons+bashkir, all carry significant risks and still die to their counters. Old han did not die to their counters which makes it unbalanced

[RefluxSemantic]

"Strat"
Here ship 42 age 6 units that includes xbows that kill cav and pikes that beat musks and skirms itss reallllly balanced.

Old han needed a nerf. It was a free win. Yes going IV is risky but it shouldn't hand you a free win, no other civ gets a free win card. Fast revolt from spain/otto, Dutch stadhouders, russian 4 heavy cannons+bashkir, all carry significant risks and still die to their counters. Old han did not die to their counters which makes it unbalanced

It was not a free win, because you die in trying to do so.

You know what else is technically a free win? Doing a treaty boom in a sup game and crossing your fingers that your opponent sits back for 50 minutes. But that's not how the game works, is it? Treaty booming doesn't seem like it's OP. Old Han Reforms was fine, you just needed to prevent them from setting it all up. The investment should be too big to work. That's at least what the facts back up, because I don't see any evidence that Old Han Reforms was OP; China wasn't used too much in tournaments and they werent considered blatantly OP. The only concern that did arise was that they were a bit too good on livestock maps like Tibet.

[dansil92]

"Strat"
Here ship 42 age 6 units that includes xbows that kill cav and pikes that beat musks and skirms itss reallllly balanced.

Old han needed a nerf. It was a free win. Yes going IV is risky but it shouldn't hand you a free win, no other civ gets a free win card. Fast revolt from spain/otto, Dutch stadhouders, russian 4 heavy cannons+bashkir, all carry significant risks and still die to their counters. Old han did not die to their counters which makes it unbalanced

It was not a free win, because you die in trying to do so.

You know what else is technically a free win? Doing a treaty boom in a sup game and crossing your fingers that your opponent sits back for 50 minutes. But that's not how the game works, is it? Treaty booming doesn't seem like it's OP. Old Han Reforms was fine, you just needed to prevent them from setting it all up. The investment should be too big to work. That's at least what the facts back up, because I don't see any evidence that Old Han Reforms was OP; China wasn't used too much in tournaments and they werent considered blatantly OP. The only concern that did arise was that they were a bit too good on livestock maps like Tibet.

You will go down in history as the only player ever to think old Han reforms wasn't overpowered. Congratulations

[Cometk]

one click of a button shouldn't skyrocket your chances of winning like ohr did. i think the problem is that you don't like that it now sees almost zero play. we can agree!

sending genitours pretty much used to be a win button like ohr, and that was nerfed, but it retains viability. now, it isn't sent all that commonly in portuguese games, but it's still a strong card.

perhaps another slight buff to ohr is in order? like 25% -> 30% or whatever

[RefluxSemantic]

"Strat"
Here ship 42 age 6 units that includes xbows that kill cav and pikes that beat musks and skirms itss reallllly balanced.

Old han needed a nerf. It was a free win. Yes going IV is risky but it shouldn't hand you a free win, no other civ gets a free win card. Fast revolt from spain/otto, Dutch stadhouders, russian 4 heavy cannons+bashkir, all carry significant risks and still die to their counters. Old han did not die to their counters which makes it unbalanced

It was not a free win, because you die in trying to do so.

You know what else is technically a free win? Doing a treaty boom in a sup game and crossing your fingers that your opponent sits back for 50 minutes. But that's not how the game works, is it? Treaty booming doesn't seem like it's OP. Old Han Reforms was fine, you just needed to prevent them from setting it all up. The investment should be too big to work. That's at least what the facts back up, because I don't see any evidence that Old Han Reforms was OP; China wasn't used too much in tournaments and they werent considered blatantly OP. The only concern that did arise was that they were a bit too good on livestock maps like Tibet.

You will go down in history as the only player ever to think old Han reforms wasn't overpowered. Congratulations

Balance in a vacuum does not exist. It's faulty logic to look at anything in a vacuum and call it unreasonable.

If there was an upgrade for 20000 gold that automatically won you the game, it wouldn't even be overpowered. Yes, the effect is obviously broken, but it wouldn't be OP at all because you can't ever get there realistically speaking. The same can be said to some extend about Old Han Reforms. Balance in a vacuum doesn't exist, you need to take all factors of a civilization into consideration and once you do you can only reach the conclusion that Old Han Reforms did not make China OP.

[RefluxSemantic]

one click of a button shouldn't skyrocket your chances of winning like ohr did. i think the problem is that you don't like that it now sees almost zero play. we can agree!

sending genitours pretty much used to be a win button like ohr, and that was nerfed, but it retains viability. now, it isn't sent all that commonly in portuguese games, but it's still a strong card.

perhaps another slight buff to ohr is in order? like 25% -> 30% or whatever

Maybe it was a bit over the top, but I don't mind civs having strong win conditions that are very hard to achieve. If China had the opportunity to do Old Han Reforms succesfully, then the other player just fucked up somewhere. But maybe it was too strong, because it was a bit one dimensional; either you stabilize or you do trying. Regardless, it's sad that one of the only true FI strats is dead on EP.

[Cometk]

first, i appreciate you putting your thoughts into clear, concise paragraphs like this. it makes understanding your perspective and responding much more approachable.

- the redesign of sioux. Sioux is an abomination on ep and the one thing that made them really fun and unique and made me want to play them, raiding and running around with bow riders, was nerfed very hard

agreed, sioux is garbage bin rn imo. i think it needs a strongly prioritized revamp in ep8.

- the india redesign. Sepoy rushes were one of my favorite strategies in the game. It was one of the only strategies where you could rush without being pretty all in or low on eco. While a sepoy nerf may have been warranted, nerfing hp to the point where a TC 2 shots a sepoy killed one of the most unique and fun (imo) strategies in the game while giving back nothing.

ok this dumb dumb. c'mon bro, the 12 sepoy rush is one of the most unique strategies in the game? what you got in compensation was 70w houses (60w at the time) which increase the viability of EVERY indian build order, aggressive strats included even if to a lesser extent. the consulate rush is just as viable as ever, and unlike the 12 sepoy rush, is actually quite unique to india

- the attempts to 'fix' spain. Spain's RE gameplay is very unique and there is no civ like it. Instead of slightly buffing their main strategy to make up for the fact that they were to weak, EP seems to want to turn them into a generic eco FF civ. I dislike that. More than half of the civs already play a generic FF style, let Spain be unique and actually be good at that.

attempts to "fix" spain so far:
- rod shipment buff
- lancer shipment buff
- rod attack buff
- fortress ageup time buff

ALL buffs to the "main strategy" that you seem to think EP took away. i don't know why you would think civilizations having fewer, or basically no options with what viable strategies they can go for would be GOOD gameplay design.

- I actually dislike how EP nerfed the only two real FI strats in the game into the ground. Japan FI was pretty unique on RE and quite possibly my favorite strat of all time. Its dead on EP. China Old han was one of my favorite things to pull off. Its also dead on EP.

china still FIs, it's just not as broken as it used to be. japan FI was nerfed yeah, perhaps unduly; the change should be reconsidered really.

- I strongly dislike what was done to china banner armies. China was fine the way they were. It was unique and fun to be limited like they were. I dont even understand why this was changed.

sure. now it's been somewhat reverted. if you ask me, i think that it's good if the game has minimal dead content

[RefluxSemantic]

I later specified what I meant by attempts to fix spain. I love the changes you listed. As I said, I have problems with many if not all design changes.

And with regards to the India rush, I'm pretty sure India is basically the only civ that could do what's basically an economical rush. If there's any other civ that can do what India could do I'd love to be able to play that. To this day I still miss sepoy rushing. They should have just nerfed their attack or increased the cost of sepoys, or nerfed their hp by 9 or something.

[dansil92]

Im not even close to implying balance in a vacuum. Its that 100% upgrade cards have no place in this game. Imagine if aztec got a 100% attack & hp card to mace and puma for 1000 food. Just imagine. Nope they dont, they get 25% to attack only on jpk in age IV for 2000 coin. The only card that approaches 100% is brit grens for 87% to siege only (20%+67%). If that was hp and range attack too it would quite obviously be stupid. So to is a china player holding a 1v3 in a team game single handedly with BOW PIKE in industrial age. It deserved a nerf

[RefluxSemantic]

Whenever you see me on ESO, feel free to try and beat me with this OP old han strat of yours.