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France Kaiserklein
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11 Jan 2020, 18:54

To be fair, sepoy rush is definitely one of the interesting, high IQ, skilled strategies in the game
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Playing Aztec is a 10% handicap

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United States of America Cometk
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11 Jan 2020, 19:09

RefluxSemantic wrote:I later specified what I meant by attempts to fix spain. I love the changes you listed. As I said, I have problems with many if not all design changes.

hmm, well unction isn't a design change at all, it's just making an existing mechanic more viable. seems your only gripe can be with spanish gold then, which again, does not supplant existing builds but simply gives the civ an option to do something economical if it wants to/sees use for it (see: tabben vs diarouga spanish revo! how awesome!) it's also very unique and interesting imo - but it does raise the question of IF the EP should be introducing new content (speaking via balance and cards, not new maps or patch features like diplomacy), which is a fine question to pose.

And with regards to the India rush, I'm pretty sure India is basically the only civ that could do what's basically an economical rush. If there's any other civ that can do what India could do I'd love to be able to play that. To this day I still miss sepoy rushing. They should have just nerfed their attack or increased the cost of sepoys, or nerfed their hp by 9 or something.

you can still do an indian consulate rush and transition into sending economical cards afterwards - in fact by what you are describing, the consulate rush hits every single benchmark and does it much more succinctly than the 12 sepoy rush. what couldn't you enjoy about the consulate rush that you could enjoy from the 12 sepoy rush? i'm also not sure what you mean by economical rushing in regards to the 12 sepoy rush; with the 12 sepoy rush (10/10 usually) you were still forgoing your own economy while making up for it by inflicting damage and forcing your opp to invest in defense early.
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Howdah
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11 Jan 2020, 19:10

Cometk wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:I later specified what I meant by attempts to fix spain. I love the changes you listed. As I said, I have problems with many if not all design changes.

hmm, well unction isn't a design change at all, it's just making an existing mechanic more viable. seems your only gripe can be with spanish gold then, which again, does not supplant existing builds but simply gives the civ an option to do something economical if it wants to/sees use for it (see: tabben vs diarouga spanish revo! how awesome!) it's also very unique and interesting imo - but it does raise the question of IF the EP should be introducing new content (speaking via balance and cards, not new maps or patch features like diplomacy), which is a fine question to pose.

And with regards to the India rush, I'm pretty sure India is basically the only civ that could do what's basically an economical rush. If there's any other civ that can do what India could do I'd love to be able to play that. To this day I still miss sepoy rushing. They should have just nerfed their attack or increased the cost of sepoys, or nerfed their hp by 9 or something.

you can still do an indian consulate rush and transition into economy afterwards. i'm also not sure what you mean by economical rushing in regards to the 12 sepoy rush; with the 12 sepoy rush (10/10 usually) you were still forgoing your own economy while making up for it by inflicting damage and forcing your opp to invest in defense early.

12 sepoy rush wasn't 10/10 mostly??? What game were you playing?
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United States of America Cometk
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11 Jan 2020, 19:16

idk but what makes the 12 sepoy rush so much more integral to your idea of india's identity than the consulate rush, when the consulate rush reaches all the benchmarks for what made the 12 sepoy rush special to you
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Canada dansil92
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11 Jan 2020, 19:17

I dont even have words anymore. From team games to stupid turtle builds, its good that its nerfed. Your bizzare emotional attachment to the single most broken card is beyond me
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Howdah
Posts: 1879

11 Jan 2020, 19:32

dansil92 wrote:I dont even have words anymore. From team games to stupid turtle builds, its good that its nerfed. Your bizzare emotional attachment to the single most broken card is beyond me

Nice discussing with you

First you claim that the card is OP. Evidence? None.
When confronted with that? You go fully ad hominem. Nice
Then you proceed to use a nice strawmen, as if I am emotionally attached to something.

Again, beat me with Old Han Reforms and we can talk. Oh wait, you can't, because it's not good enough to carry you.
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Canada dansil92
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11 Jan 2020, 19:36

Literally everyone ever knows its op. Youre the outlier so you require evidence. I dont have to "best you with old han" lol srsly
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Howdah
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11 Jan 2020, 19:36

Cometk wrote:idk but what makes the 12 sepoy rush so much more integral to your idea of india's identity than the consulate rush, when the consulate rush reaches all the benchmarks for what made the 12 sepoy rush special to you

The 12 sepoy rush is much less all in than the consulate rush. You cut next to nothing for it, you don't cut vills, you still get market ups and you can still get otto consulate vills and the large wood trickle. 10/10 sepoy rush cuts a lot of vills and gets market upgrades very late. Consulate rush basically makes it impossible to ever go Otto consulate vills and otto consulate in general, which makes it much more all in than the standard sepoy rush.

The nice thing about the sepoy rush, the thing that I liked about it and the thing that made it pretty unique, is that it's basically just a light pressure build that doesn't intend to win the game. You just open up with a few sepoys, force your opponent to not be greedy while you try to get a few vills, without actually compromising your economy that much. If you get one or two vills (and of course force your opponent to not do silly things) then it paid off. It wasn't always good, but it was always a fun thing to do. It was a very interactive build order too. That's much more fun to me than sitting in your base and doing nothing.

I also don't understand how you can think the consulate rush has the same identity. That's far more all in, and basically has the intention to straight up win the game with it. If you don't do serious cripling damage it's really hard to win the game from that point onwards. Also, the timing is basically completely different too. It's just an entirely different strategy that plays out very differently.
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United States of America Cometk
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11 Jan 2020, 19:39

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France [Armag] diarouga
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11 Jan 2020, 19:40

Jerom is right here. The 300e build is all in and if you can't damage your opponent you'll just lose. The 12 sepoy rush is much more standard.
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Howdah
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11 Jan 2020, 19:46

dansil92 wrote:Literally everyone ever knows its op. Youre the outlier so you require evidence. I dont have to "best you with old han" lol srsly

Okay, then explain to me the following: Why the fuck was China not played nearly as much as Germany or France during the days it had old han? Why was China not universally considered unbeatable? You don't have to best me with old han no, but you could at least engage my arguments. There is zero evidence that Old Han Reforms made China OP. No actually, there is evidence that proves that Old Han Reforms did NOT make China OP. You can't look at balance in a vacuum either, because thats fucking retarded.

Oh and for the record, the 50% cost increase is actually pretty shitty you know. It's actually deceptively shitty.

Guard CKN before Old Han Reforms:
1.33411764706 hp/villager second
0.22235294117 attack/villager second

Guard CKN after Old Han Reforms:
1.48235294118 hp/villager second
0.24705882352 attack/villager second

Effective percentual increase in cost effeciency: 11%
Yes ladies and gentlemen, an effective 11% increase in attack and HP per villager second is considered OP.

EDIT: I assumed no Market upgrades. The result stays the same for with market upgrades though
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United States of America Cometk
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11 Jan 2020, 19:47

it doesn't need to make china overpowered in standard 1v1 supremacy, it's just a broken card
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Howdah
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11 Jan 2020, 19:49

Cometk wrote:it doesn't need to make china overpowered in standard 1v1 supremacy, it's just a broken card

It doesn't even make CKN and Qiangs OP. It's a while ago that I actually did the maths. It's a fucking 11% hp/attack increase. This shipment is basically worse than what shipping Boyars in age 2 is like.

EDIT: When you apply Boyars to guard units, it's an effective 13% increase. So Old Han Reforms is worse than Boyars. You guys seriously need to check the maths and then come back to this thread, because Old Han Reforms just isn't OP. The only thing that can make it OP is if you let them get a huge army of Old Han before they ship Old Han Reforms, but then you're just straight up playing terribly. As long as you don't let that happen, Old Han Reformed CKN/Qiang Pikes aren't OP for their cost.
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United States of America Cometk
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11 Jan 2020, 19:49

you're looking at it in a vacuum lol
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Howdah
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11 Jan 2020, 19:52

Cometk wrote:you're looking at it in a vacuum lol

That's what we were doing right? iTs Op In A vAcUuMmMmM!!!!!

No, it's fucking not. It's literally worse than Boyars.
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United States of America Cometk
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11 Jan 2020, 19:53

ok im out
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Italy Garja
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11 Jan 2020, 19:57

Are you talking of RE card or EP. And if EP which version.
On RE Old Han reforms is OP, both in math and more importantly in game. On EP it was maybe meh at some point but now with no food cost, 50% boost and only 20% cost increase it's definetely a good card.
Also care to explain the math for which it is worse than boyars. They both work on colonial stats right?
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Howdah
Posts: 1879

11 Jan 2020, 19:59

Cometk wrote:ok im out

Seriously, check the maths.

In a vacuum, Old Han units don't get much more cost effective. I thought it'd be like a 30% upgrade still, but it's 11%! I must say, I was surprised too, but this completely invalidates all arguments against Old Han Reforms. It's not necessarily OP. Wait, let me show you:

Old Cost effectiveness:
Base stats*1.5(veteran+guard upgrade)/(cost in villager seconds)

New Cost effectiveness:
Base stats*2.5(veteran+guard+Old Han reforms)/(cost*1.5)

Then:
New Cost effectiveness/Old Cost effectiveness = 2.5/(1.5*1.5) = 1.11
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Howdah
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11 Jan 2020, 20:00

Garja wrote:Are you talking of RE card or EP. And if EP which version.
On RE Old Han reforms is OP, both in math and more importantly in game. On EP it was maybe meh at some point but now with no food cost, 50% boost and only 20% cost increase it's definetely a good card.
Also care to explain the math for which it is worse than boyars. They both work on colonial stats right?

RE Card. In terms of math, it's only an 11% increase in cost effectiveness. The perceived unkillableness of CKN/Qiangs is literally placebo.
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Howdah
Posts: 1879

11 Jan 2020, 20:02

Lets consider the facts:

Old Han Reforms wasn't OP. It didn't make it so that China was unbeatable in any regard. Tournament usage of China reflects this, as well as the fact that China FI was still rare in tournament play.

In a vacuum Old Han Reforms doesn't actually make CKN/Qiangs OP. It is a slightly worse version of Boyars. It's just that the actual effect is mathematically complicated, which makes it hard to see that it's not nearly as good as it may seem.
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Canada dansil92
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11 Jan 2020, 20:08

You can still ship 21 ckn regardless of cost, and it upgrades ones already trained and you're still wrong. Nearly every other upgrade card in the game varies from 10%-30%. Your math is flawed. By that argument the 15% infantry combat card is like 2% or some made up number. I can't believe I'm having to say that 100% is too much for any upgrade ever
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Howdah
Posts: 1879

11 Jan 2020, 20:13

dansil92 wrote:You can still ship 21 ckn regardless of cost, and it upgrades ones already trained and you're still wrong. Nearly every other upgrade card in the game varies from 10%-30%. Your math is flawed. By that argument the 15% infantry combat card is like 2% or some made up number. I can't believe I'm having to say that 100% is too much for any upgrade ever

No, a 15% infantry combat card is 1.65/1.5 = 1.1, so a 10% upgrade. There's nothing flawed about this. If you have guard infantry, and you ship a 15% infantry upgrade card, the stats will go up by 10% compared to what they were before you shipped the card.
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Italy Garja
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11 Jan 2020, 20:23

RefluxSemantic wrote:
Garja wrote:Are you talking of RE card or EP. And if EP which version.
On RE Old Han reforms is OP, both in math and more importantly in game. On EP it was maybe meh at some point but now with no food cost, 50% boost and only 20% cost increase it's definetely a good card.
Also care to explain the math for which it is worse than boyars. They both work on colonial stats right?

RE Card. In terms of math, it's only an 11% increase in cost effectiveness. The perceived unkillableness of CKN/Qiangs is literally placebo.

This math appears to be wrong.
I can tell you how is on EP, since that's what I just tested in the scenario editor. Settings are vet+guard ups (disciplined + honored), boyars (old han reforms).

Boyars is worth around 10% boost.
Old han is worth 25% boost.
This is also pretty obvious as all those units are 50% stronger once they are upgraded in industrial.

RefluxSemantic wrote:Lets consider the facts:

Old Han Reforms wasn't OP. It didn't make it so that China was unbeatable in any regard. Tournament usage of China reflects this, as well as the fact that China FI was still rare in tournament play.

In a vacuum Old Han Reforms doesn't actually make CKN/Qiangs OP. It is a slightly worse version of Boyars. It's just that the actual effect is mathematically complicated, which makes it hard to see that it's not nearly as good as it may seem.

In a vacuum old han makes those units OP. Their stats are ridicolous and they destroy basically all other units except the very top ones in the game (yumi, cuirs, etc.).
In practice Old han was also OP on RE. There are games that end up in industrial and from the moment old han is shipped the game is automatically over, and by a large margin too.
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Howdah
Posts: 1879

11 Jan 2020, 20:25

Obviously they get more expensive garja? I specifically stated attack/cost, didnt I?
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Italy Garja
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11 Jan 2020, 20:31

How do you even compare a stat boost with a cost increase and summarize it up in one number and then conclude one card is worse than the other.

Honestly let's put it in the simplest way. Old Han reform boost just works on a completely different scale than all other boost cards. If you were to make a comparison you should atleast assume something like Old Han is basically 2 card in ones, which is basically is, actually 3 cards in one (20+15+15 %). Except both chokunu and qiang pike have extra upgrade cards on top of that.
Old Han is simply way more powerful. The cost increase does matter but only to some extent. 25% is nothing prohibitive in industrial. Units are going to be slightly more expensive than their food/gold counterpart but clearly better.

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