Re: ESOC Patch 7.0.0.0 released!
Posted: 11 Jan 2020, 18:54
To be fair, sepoy rush is definitely one of the interesting, high IQ, skilled strategies in the game
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hmm, well unction isn't a design change at all, it's just making an existing mechanic more viable. seems your only gripe can be with spanish gold then, which again, does not supplant existing builds but simply gives the civ an option to do something economical if it wants to/sees use for it (see: tabben vs diarouga spanish revo! how awesome!) it's also very unique and interesting imo - but it does raise the question of IF the EP should be introducing new content (speaking via balance and cards, not new maps or patch features like diplomacy), which is a fine question to pose.RefluxSemantic wrote:I later specified what I meant by attempts to fix spain. I love the changes you listed. As I said, I have problems with many if not all design changes.
you can still do an indian consulate rush and transition into sending economical cards afterwards - in fact by what you are describing, the consulate rush hits every single benchmark and does it much more succinctly than the 12 sepoy rush. what couldn't you enjoy about the consulate rush that you could enjoy from the 12 sepoy rush? i'm also not sure what you mean by economical rushing in regards to the 12 sepoy rush; with the 12 sepoy rush (10/10 usually) you were still forgoing your own economy while making up for it by inflicting damage and forcing your opp to invest in defense early.And with regards to the India rush, I'm pretty sure India is basically the only civ that could do what's basically an economical rush. If there's any other civ that can do what India could do I'd love to be able to play that. To this day I still miss sepoy rushing. They should have just nerfed their attack or increased the cost of sepoys, or nerfed their hp by 9 or something.
12 sepoy rush wasn't 10/10 mostly??? What game were you playing?Cometk wrote:hmm, well unction isn't a design change at all, it's just making an existing mechanic more viable. seems your only gripe can be with spanish gold then, which again, does not supplant existing builds but simply gives the civ an option to do something economical if it wants to/sees use for it (see: tabben vs diarouga spanish revo! how awesome!) it's also very unique and interesting imo - but it does raise the question of IF the EP should be introducing new content (speaking via balance and cards, not new maps or patch features like diplomacy), which is a fine question to pose.RefluxSemantic wrote:I later specified what I meant by attempts to fix spain. I love the changes you listed. As I said, I have problems with many if not all design changes.
you can still do an indian consulate rush and transition into economy afterwards. i'm also not sure what you mean by economical rushing in regards to the 12 sepoy rush; with the 12 sepoy rush (10/10 usually) you were still forgoing your own economy while making up for it by inflicting damage and forcing your opp to invest in defense early.And with regards to the India rush, I'm pretty sure India is basically the only civ that could do what's basically an economical rush. If there's any other civ that can do what India could do I'd love to be able to play that. To this day I still miss sepoy rushing. They should have just nerfed their attack or increased the cost of sepoys, or nerfed their hp by 9 or something.
Nice discussing with youdansil92 wrote:I dont even have words anymore. From team games to stupid turtle builds, its good that its nerfed. Your bizzare emotional attachment to the single most broken card is beyond me
The 12 sepoy rush is much less all in than the consulate rush. You cut next to nothing for it, you don't cut vills, you still get market ups and you can still get otto consulate vills and the large wood trickle. 10/10 sepoy rush cuts a lot of vills and gets market upgrades very late. Consulate rush basically makes it impossible to ever go Otto consulate vills and otto consulate in general, which makes it much more all in than the standard sepoy rush.Cometk wrote:idk but what makes the 12 sepoy rush so much more integral to your idea of india's identity than the consulate rush, when the consulate rush reaches all the benchmarks for what made the 12 sepoy rush special to you
Okay, then explain to me the following: Why the fuck was China not played nearly as much as Germany or France during the days it had old han? Why was China not universally considered unbeatable? You don't have to best me with old han no, but you could at least engage my arguments. There is zero evidence that Old Han Reforms made China OP. No actually, there is evidence that proves that Old Han Reforms did NOT make China OP. You can't look at balance in a vacuum either, because thats fucking retarded.dansil92 wrote:Literally everyone ever knows its op. Youre the outlier so you require evidence. I dont have to "best you with old han" lol srsly
It doesn't even make CKN and Qiangs OP. It's a while ago that I actually did the maths. It's a fucking 11% hp/attack increase. This shipment is basically worse than what shipping Boyars in age 2 is like.Cometk wrote:it doesn't need to make china overpowered in standard 1v1 supremacy, it's just a broken card
That's what we were doing right? iTs Op In A vAcUuMmMmM!!!!!Cometk wrote:you're looking at it in a vacuum lol
Seriously, check the maths.Cometk wrote:ok im out
RE Card. In terms of math, it's only an 11% increase in cost effectiveness. The perceived unkillableness of CKN/Qiangs is literally placebo.Garja wrote:Are you talking of RE card or EP. And if EP which version.
On RE Old Han reforms is OP, both in math and more importantly in game. On EP it was maybe meh at some point but now with no food cost, 50% boost and only 20% cost increase it's definetely a good card.
Also care to explain the math for which it is worse than boyars. They both work on colonial stats right?
No, a 15% infantry combat card is 1.65/1.5 = 1.1, so a 10% upgrade. There's nothing flawed about this. If you have guard infantry, and you ship a 15% infantry upgrade card, the stats will go up by 10% compared to what they were before you shipped the card.dansil92 wrote:You can still ship 21 ckn regardless of cost, and it upgrades ones already trained and you're still wrong. Nearly every other upgrade card in the game varies from 10%-30%. Your math is flawed. By that argument the 15% infantry combat card is like 2% or some made up number. I can't believe I'm having to say that 100% is too much for any upgrade ever
This math appears to be wrong.RefluxSemantic wrote:RE Card. In terms of math, it's only an 11% increase in cost effectiveness. The perceived unkillableness of CKN/Qiangs is literally placebo.Garja wrote:Are you talking of RE card or EP. And if EP which version.
On RE Old Han reforms is OP, both in math and more importantly in game. On EP it was maybe meh at some point but now with no food cost, 50% boost and only 20% cost increase it's definetely a good card.
Also care to explain the math for which it is worse than boyars. They both work on colonial stats right?
In a vacuum old han makes those units OP. Their stats are ridicolous and they destroy basically all other units except the very top ones in the game (yumi, cuirs, etc.).RefluxSemantic wrote:Lets consider the facts:
Old Han Reforms wasn't OP. It didn't make it so that China was unbeatable in any regard. Tournament usage of China reflects this, as well as the fact that China FI was still rare in tournament play.
In a vacuum Old Han Reforms doesn't actually make CKN/Qiangs OP. It is a slightly worse version of Boyars. It's just that the actual effect is mathematically complicated, which makes it hard to see that it's not nearly as good as it may seem.