RefluxSemantic wrote: Goodspeed wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:So do we finally agree that at least in lategame, old han units aren't even close to OP? Because I recall you saying that Qiang Pikes beat skirmishers earlier in this thread..
You don't need to do math to know that late game old han is inferior to the alternatives. Just look at treaty.
Isn't Old Han pretty good in treaty though? Because of how pop efficient it is? Or do they still go for Arq/Chandao?
If people can easily make cannons then they are not too op, but this is simply not the case. If you're going old han, the opponent has to counter it by killing you before you get numbers. And as @Kaiserklein
already brilliantly explained, this is a very scary thing because going under villages is a bit of a suicide. There is no telling if china will pop 20 pikes, 20 bows, 26 rattans, 2 infinite crows (second reason why china IV is very strong), or 8cav+3crow shipment (this one is a bit underrated imo as it only costs food) on top of your stuff + you also get an invincible hero that shits units every time he punches you. Also going fortress cannons against industrial units is a bit of an uphill battle too. Even going fortress yumi + flaming arrows would be quite hard due to how fast china can get the numbers out with a backup of infinite crow spam (please consider that this japanese unit composition is completely unprotected).
Not to mention that the units themselves are just ridiculous. OP would be the appropriate expression. I would argue that you cannot compare shipments to researched upgrades, those two things are different mechanics. In this sense RE old han reforms stood alone. Researched upgrades scale very consistently with ageups and have been in aoe games since the beginning. It is always an interesting matchup where one player ages and the other doesn't. But this upgrade just upset the whole system where you could get 2 ageups ahead of your opponent without making even the investment for a single ageup.
Now you keep saying that it is a 11% upgrade but this is bs. The costs don't mean too much in reality - summer palace will make a very big part of your early military presence and will not be negatively impacted with the upgrade. 10% brit consulate was stupid on top of those units. It also makes it so that china doesn't need any coin anymore which is also imbalanced. Also should be considered is the fact that units such as bowmen rely less so on multipliers than skirmishers as they have a high base attack. So ckn can already trade decently against cav with this high attack and the additional 0.5 speed that they get. And they can also be upgraded with the equivalent of counter-infantry rifling (the only civ that benefits on 2 units from this upgrade) hence any fortress musk+cannon push ends up eventually defeated with faster ckn and ridiculous china cav or complementary crows or unkillable disciple tank-man
in conclusion: there is very little any other civ can do after RE old han reforms has come in... it just seems like you've never actually played games with re old hans, which doesn't help your credibility on this question
tldr: no, is op