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United States of America Cometk
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09 Dec 2019, 16:16

n0el wrote:Why should a civ be OP on one start and god awful on another start. It’s just a terrible design.

hasn't dutch been this way forever? like when dutch used to get a 100c crate start vs an asian civ it's a complete joke. at least dumb shit to that extent has been eradicated with this iteration
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France kami_ryu
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09 Dec 2019, 16:18

Cometk wrote:
n0el wrote:Why should a civ be OP on one start and god awful on another start. It’s just a terrible design.

hasn't dutch been this way forever? like when dutch used to get a 100c crate start vs an asian civ it's a complete joke. at least dumb shit to that extent has been eradicated with this iteration

Or Germans with the wood start?

hmm. I just want to see how these crates work out in a real meta. These changes can be reverted. It's not the end of the world no matter what. So we can cool down hatin on the patch and just see how it goes?

and people who get a boner over saying "I told you so" needa calm their tits. We get it
thanks RK
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Iran n0el
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09 Dec 2019, 16:24

I don' think people understand the scale on this. Those were making a civ mid tier to top tier, not bottom tier to god tier. China was strong if not OP before these changes. Now they are even better on the 300 f/w start. People are viewing this with their china is too strong bias thinking this is a good change bc it nerfs China, but in fact they are getting a substantial buff and going to be even more insane.
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Germany Lukas_L99
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09 Dec 2019, 16:31

kami_ryu wrote:
Cometk wrote:
n0el wrote:Why should a civ be OP on one start and god awful on another start. It’s just a terrible design.

hasn't dutch been this way forever? like when dutch used to get a 100c crate start vs an asian civ it's a complete joke. at least dumb shit to that extent has been eradicated with this iteration

Or Germans with the wood start?


So why do you wanna create another civ that relies so much on the crate start if not more..?
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Austria KINGofOsmane
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09 Dec 2019, 16:32

some good stuff some random stuff
Not sure why u would touch tp range to tc or xp trickl lol
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United States of America Cometk
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09 Dec 2019, 16:37

i think some recorded games would be preferable to obnoxious doomsaying
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Italy Garja
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09 Dec 2019, 16:38

n0el wrote:I don' think people understand the scale on this. Those were making a civ mid tier to top tier, not bottom tier to god tier. China was strong if not OP before these changes. Now they are even better on the 300 f/w start. People are viewing this with their china is too strong bias thinking this is a good change bc it nerfs China, but in fact they are getting a substantial buff and going to be even more insane.

They are getting 300f 300w when other civs get the same. Again having same crates is what makes things fair.
I just tested 2 games and with the food start you age a lot quickier than usual (can use only 2v on wonder and still be up 10 secs faster) so you can chop for the TP in transition.
I imagine you do the same on the gold start (you have to chop 100g less for the FF) or simply make a market if the plan is colonial.
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Argentina Riotcoke
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09 Dec 2019, 16:41

Oh no my civ gets a fair start now, not 300w when my opponent got 100c
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Canada Mitoe
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09 Dec 2019, 16:42

Haven’t read the thread, but how in the world did the Chinese banner armies make it through despite resistance from every single top player?
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France [Armag] diarouga
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09 Dec 2019, 16:44

Riotcoke wrote:
breeze wrote:About balance…

Thanks for fucking asian civs hard with nerf to British consulate, aswell as 100w removal from china (like wtf?) while the civ was anyway average. But don't touch to germany at all!! Great work man!

China can also get 300w 300f start now which is broken.

Yes so China is super weak sometimes and op with some other crates. People wanted fixed crates for a better balance, EP gave us more random crates and brought even more imbalance to the game, that's ugly.
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Argentina Riotcoke
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09 Dec 2019, 16:45

Mitoe wrote:Haven’t read the thread, but how in the world did the Chinese banner armies make it through despite resistance from every single top player?

Zou is a dictator
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France [Armag] diarouga
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09 Dec 2019, 16:46

kami_ryu wrote:I'm really interested to see where this patch goes. I definitely don't agree with every change but I guess I'll see how it plays out. Meta is definitely going to reel from this one, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing

"We'll see how it plays out" that's the current EP policy. Make random changes, ignore the criticism and watch the game become worse. And all that with the ESOC staff agreement. I guess the ESOC admins will always manage to find a way to disappoint me...

I genuially believed that someone would stop this disaster at some point.
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Netherlands edeholland
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09 Dec 2019, 16:48

Cometk wrote:i think some recorded games would be preferable to obnoxious doomsaying
There is a recorded game board in the EP7 beta section, there are only 3 threads in it: https://eso-community.net/viewforum.php?f=732

Radical changes like these should have been tested beforehand. If that actually happened, I hope somebody can post them to the recorded game board.
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United States of America Cometk
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09 Dec 2019, 16:52

anybody could have playtested if they wanted to - the beta was available for 3 months. players who complain now can make their case with recorded games :)
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France [Armag] diarouga
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09 Dec 2019, 16:53

kami_ryu wrote:
Cometk wrote:
n0el wrote:Why should a civ be OP on one start and god awful on another start. It’s just a terrible design.

hasn't dutch been this way forever? like when dutch used to get a 100c crate start vs an asian civ it's a complete joke. at least dumb shit to that extent has been eradicated with this iteration

Or Germans with the wood start?

hmm. I just want to see how these crates work out in a real meta. These changes can be reverted. It's not the end of the world no matter what. So we can cool down hatin on the patch and just see how it goes?

and people who get a boner over saying "I told you so" needa calm their tits. We get it

You might want to see how these crates work out in a real meta, but we know how it will work out.
This Zoi Patch makes balance worse and is fucked up design wise, what are we supposed to do ? Sit down and wait for the next patch ?
Being "constructive" doesn't change shit when you're ignored so what's wrong with trashing this new patch ?
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France [Armag] diarouga
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09 Dec 2019, 16:55

Cometk wrote:i think some recorded games would be preferable to obnoxious doomsaying

We don't need recorded games to understand that some changes are broken. Furthermore you cannot prove that a design change is bad with recs.
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United States of America Cometk
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09 Dec 2019, 16:58

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Being "constructive" doesn't change shit when you're ignored so what's wrong with trashing this new patch ?

the reason you're (generally) ignored is because in 2018 you harassed the patch leader and actively tried to sabotage the patch by leaking confidential notes and in most discussions you tend to crybitch because you can't always have things your way  
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France [Armag] diarouga
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09 Dec 2019, 17:02

Cometk wrote:anybody could have playtested if they wanted to - the beta was available for 3 months. players who complain now can make their case with recorded games :)

Again, how can we prove that the design changes are bad with recs ? For instance everybody but Zoi is against the banner changes and it still got implemented.

Finally we're not getting paid for playtesting you know. And currently the EP change process is :
1) Zoi makes a change regardless of whether it is popular or not
2) People dislike the patch because of these changes and don't want to play on that patch because it is simply not fun
3) ESOC people claim that we should have tested these changes

If you cannot see how dumb this policy is, there's nothing I can do for you but people should understand that EP shouldn't work this way.
It's as if the State decided to build a chemical factory near your house, claiming that everything will be fine, and that they would make some security improvements if people get cancer.
Well, we don't want your fucking chemical factory and we don't want to waste our time testing a shit patch.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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09 Dec 2019, 17:03

Cometk wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Being "constructive" doesn't change shit when you're ignored so what's wrong with trashing this new patch ?

the reason you're (generally) ignored is because in 2018 you harassed the patch leader and actively tried to sabotage the patch by leaking confidential notes and in most discussions you tend to crybitch because you can't always have things your way  

This patch just proves my point. Zoi should have been impeached and the "let's see what happens instead of beaching" led to this patch.

Besides I'm not the only one who got ignored. Every single top player got ignored on the chinese changes as Mitoe said above.
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Canada Mitoe
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09 Dec 2019, 17:06

Well in any case, aside from the new banner armies (which should have at least remained restricted to the castle IMO) and the Portuguese gather buff, I don’t mind most of the changes. Though there are still a few that I find a bit pointless, such as increasing the cost of the Russian musketeers to avoid a decimal instead of just reverting it to RE for simplicity.

Also still drives me crazy that the Japanese deck change is listed as a bug fix rather than a balance change when it’s arguably not even a bug and has a colossal impact on balance. At the very least just list it in both sections, please.
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No Flag fightinfrenchman
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09 Dec 2019, 17:09

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Cometk wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Being "constructive" doesn't change shit when you're ignored so what's wrong with trashing this new patch ?

the reason you're (generally) ignored is because in 2018 you harassed the patch leader and actively tried to sabotage the patch by leaking confidential notes and in most discussions you tend to crybitch because you can't always have things your way  

This patch just proves my point. Zoi should have been impeached and the "let's see what happens instead of beaching" led to this patch.

Besides I'm not the only one who got ignored. Every single top player got ignored on the chinese changes as Mitoe said above.


I would love to watch ESOC impeachment hearings
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Italy Garja
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09 Dec 2019, 17:14

Ye Portguese gather buff ruins Ports changes.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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09 Dec 2019, 17:15

The patch “team” should prove that the changes are good. Rather than us proving why its bad. He’s literally coming up with random changes i doubt anyone even discussed with him, like no one even mentioned they wanted banner armies or china crates changed(quite the opposite actually), yet theyre randomly implemented as though saying “prove us wrong” rather than explaining why these changes are good and evidence to back it up. Just a dumb policy as he could come up with any change (thats clearly an unintelligent idea as the vast majority disagree) and then we spend an entire patch iteration complaining and then gets fed up with negative feedback.
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France Rikikipu
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09 Dec 2019, 17:18

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Cometk wrote:anybody could have playtested if they wanted to - the beta was available for 3 months. players who complain now can make their case with recorded games :)

Again, how can we prove that the design changes are bad with recs ? For instance everybody but Zoi is against the banner changes and it still got implemented.

Finally we're not getting paid for playtesting you know. And currently the EP change process is :
1) Zoi makes a change regardless of whether it is popular or not
2) People dislike the patch because of these changes and don't want to play on that patch because it is simply not fun
3) ESOC people claim that we should have tested these changes

If you cannot see how dumb this policy is, there's nothing I can do for you but people should understand that EP shouldn't work this way.
It's as if the State decided to build a chemical factory near your house, claiming that everything will be fine, and that they would make some security improvements if people get cancer.
Well, we don't want your fucking chemical factory and we don't want to waste our time testing a shit patch.


In a less trash talk way I sort of agree with Dia. When you face a problem and try to get an ameliorations, this is usually the process you do for each iteration:
Define the problem > Dig into the cause > Take an action > Check if the action has solved the problem

Main issue I have right now is that I only see actions taken, but I don't see most of the time what balance problem they try solve or what reasoning there is behind the change. So at the end, it just seems to be Zoi has just invented a couple of actions out of nowhere and insh'allah it's going to work. I don't pretend it works this way, just saying that this is how I feel and how I suspect it's felt by other people
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United States of America Cometk
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09 Dec 2019, 17:20

Hazza54321 wrote:. . . yet theyre randomly implemented as though saying “prove us wrong” rather than explaining why these changes are good and evidence to back it up.


from the OP
EAGLEMUT wrote:P.S. Please refer to my comments for insight on some notable changes
~ @zoom

comments on some notable changes
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