ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

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Argentina Jotunir
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by Jotunir »

I know, but I can't stand it hahahaha
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:As far as I'm concern balance is always something that is relative to a map, and the aim should not to have all MU fair on a given map but a high enough number of MUs fair on a given map. So if only half the civs are fine on a water map or a no TP map I'm ok with that.
Personally I would like to have the balance focus on standard maps. It's just nice when there is a set of maps where basically every civ is viable. It doesn't have to be that every civ is viable in every match up, but it would be nice if the 'power level' (that is, the average expected win rate for all of the match ups) is at least reasonable. If that is the case I don't really care for non standard maps, as long as they are reasonably balanced like you described. I think EP should focus on the balanced mapset, and only occasionally tweak civs for other types of maps when they are far too dominant.
Besides a LOT of balance problems (maybe most of balance problems) come from the way MU are decided in tournament with a first pick and a counter pick. To give an example: a mirror is fair on every single map obviously. So a port mirror is a perfectly fine MU on Thar desert, but the way MU are decided in tournaments this kind of MUs are unreachable because nobody can pick port first on Thar desert cause he would obviously get counterpicked.
This is definitely true. The tournament system really skews our perception of balanced. Good first pick civs are civs with few hard counters. They might have a balanced 50% winrate across all match ups, but the fact that they have no losing match ups will make them an extremely good first pick. That doesn't really mean the civ is too strong though. I think this happened with Brits in the past. Brits were pretty strong for sure, but I didn't really think they dominated many match ups. They just had almost no losing match ups. The opposite is also true; A very strong civ with one or two huge counters will be a terrible first pick. And then there's also the part where some civs are good counter picks to very popular civs, which tends to skew how people view the strength of that civ.

I personally think it's more important to balance casual play (so just random ladder/lobby games). That is after all the mode we engage in the most. But it's hard to not let the tournament format affect your perception of balance.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by vividlyplain »

Kaiserklein wrote:
vividlyplain wrote:
Show hidden quotes
i made bering, didn't realize that treasure set wasn't balanced

i guess i could change that one word in the xs file before epl2 starts
Or if you want to keep that treasure set, I can rebalance its few problematic treasures, I don't mind.
sounds good too... that way no dacoit guardians end up freezing to death
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

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Post by RefluxSemantic »

It'd be really cool to have the Siberia treasure set on some maps. I have some very warm feelings for Siberia as a map and would love to see those treasures again.
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India drsingh
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by drsingh »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
n0el wrote:
Show hidden quotes

EP9 should balance natives, consulate options and politicians.

I guess we have to hope DE comes before EP9 then.


Since EP is finally focussing on intra civ balance. I hope it comes before DE. I doubt that developers will focus much on gameplay.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by iNcog »

what is intra civ balance?
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

drsingh wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

I guess we have to hope DE comes before EP9 then.


Since EP is finally focussing on intra civ balance. I hope it comes before DE. I doubt that developers will focus much on gameplay.

Intra civ balance wtf ?
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by princeofcarthage »

drsingh wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

I guess we have to hope DE comes before EP9 then.


Since EP is finally focussing on intra civ balance. I hope it comes before DE. I doubt that developers will focus much on gameplay.

@EAGLEMUT liking this is a potential indication that devs aren't focusing much on gameplay.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by drsingh »

iNcog wrote:what is intra civ balance?
Balancing between the various options available to a given civ.
Like between different units, strategies, politician or wonders etc.

So that you have multiple ways(almost equally effective) to play a civ. And not be predictable, or troll if you do.

Edit in italics
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

drsingh wrote:
iNcog wrote:what is intra civ balance?
Balancing between the various options available to a given civ.
Like between different units, strategies, politician or wonders etc.

So that you have multiple ways to play a civ. And not be predictable, or troll if you do.
You already have multiple ways to play a civ. Also by increasing that "intra civ" balance, you're going to create balance issues.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Can we remove the april fool please ? It's really getting boring.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by EAGLEMUT »

You'll be glad to know it's gotten even more spicy just today!
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

EAGLEMUT wrote:You'll be glad to know it's gotten even more spicy just today!
Yea I saw that, which is why I'm asking.
Or at least don't let the maps spawn with "unexpect events" by default.
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Argentina Jotunir
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by Jotunir »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Can we remove the april fool please ? It's really getting boring.
I am with you on this one hahaha
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by Sargsyan »

its april 4th
krichk wrote:For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge Challenger_Marco
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by Kaiserklein »

EAGLEMUT wrote:You'll be glad to know it's gotten even more spicy just today!
Can we set the "default variability" to be default? I think that kinda makes sense...
I dunno what's fun about making people rehost anyway. Or even relog, since half the times it bugs and you can't even turn it off
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea, I wasted so much time rehosting. It's fun one day but now it's just annoying.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by EAGLEMUT »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yea, I wasted so much time rehosting. It's fun one day but now it's just annoying.
Unexpected Events are set to default for two days, so they will be ending this midnight GMT.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by Kaiserklein »

Okay cool then
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by zoom »

iNcog wrote:what is intra civ balance?
Actually, I should have stopped assuming that non-italian readers know "inter" and "intra" a long time ago. However, I actually did use "balance between civilizations" in the OP.

Mr. Singh did a good job at explaining it, though.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by zoom »

Plantinator wrote:Random idea: could we have nat tps spawn a vill when built instead of xp trickle? (Kind of like a manor)
That would guarantee the uniqueness of normal tps while still makin nats viable somewhat.
The fundamental flaw of such a change is that it only encourages building the TP; not keeping it (which rewards map control).
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by iNcog »

zoom wrote:
iNcog wrote:what is intra civ balance?
Actually, I should have stopped assuming that non-italian readers know "inter" and "intra" a long time ago. However, I actually did use "balance between civilizations" in the OP.

Mr. Singh did a good job at explaining it, though.
I am half italian must be why
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by zoom »

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:
Jotunir wrote:It takes the fun out of the game, that is not a good change. Makes the card much less useful.
500Hp mean that big of a deal for you? do you ever play non advanced TP civs? trolol
I actually think that he makes a good point. It's just that balance comes first. While it is a significant nerf, most civilizations have been buffed, and I expect the shipment to remain (competitively) viable.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by zoom »

Hawk_Girl wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote: – Incan Huaminca attack decreased from 15 to 14
By mitigating the pre-existing significant risk of the minor native alliance trickle, this nerf helps faciliate its slight buff.


This makes no sense. Didnt you add nat tp xp trickle to buff native play? Then just actually buff natives lol, and stop trying to make nat tps into normal tps
I think that it makes good sense, since it's a single change that helps both 0TP map and minor native balance, which can be done to a high standard months before elaborate rebalancing of minor native tribes is realistic. In the meantime, the Huaminca is the outlier. I could revert it prematurely, but that seems an irresponsible risk to take.

With that said – that's the plan (from the OP): "Ideally, a future EP9 would feature further rebalancing of age-up options, consulate allies, mercenaries and minor natives."
:flowers:

Hawk_Girl wrote:
n0el wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:So we're first making nat posts viable with the xp trickle, so that people build them, before balancing what they provide? Sounds real smart

Should have been done before or simultaneously, I agree.


Just need to be honest with what the purpose is. If you want to just buff nat play and see that come more into effect, then just buff actual nat play with buffing nat units/build limits/nat techs and stop this nat tp xp trickle. However if you want to simply make no tp maps have sort of a tp still, then keep the nat xp trickle but then say that's why you are doing it. Now it's so counterproductive to nerf a nat so the buff to nat play didnt get to big? Like what? What you are doing is making nat play less viable. You make getting nat tp more viable, yes, but actual nat play less viable.
A quote of myself, from the OP:

"This buff improves the general viability of civilizations on 0TP-maps, as well as the general viability of minor natives."

Another quote of myself, from the EP7 release post (when the change was implemented, rather than slightly tweaked):

"This change will improve minor native viability, as well as the viability of TP-dependent civilizations, on 0TP maps. Thank you to Peachrocks for suggesting this change."

I think that many misunderstandings could be avoided if more readers took a brief moment to read my comments. They are meticulously developed and offer crucial insight into motives and reasoning, to anyone who is interested.
:flowers:

P.S. I miss @Peachrocks!
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.0.0.0 released!

Post by zoom »

Mitoe wrote:I agree the Huaminca change doesn't really make sense.
One's opinion on that particular change seems to depend entirely on whether one considers the unit an acceptable risk to take, as is. The nerf also has the added bonus of balancing rescued warrior treasure rewards. Regardless, it's not a big deal.

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