ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

IAmSoldieR wrote:We just have to look at ep now as not only balance but reimagining the game to create the best possible version in hope it is picked up fully for DE. Cause that's what seems to be happening.
And if everyone ends up on the same patch then it doesn't matter how similar to RE it is.
Every design change will rub some people the wrong way. It's alienating. RE was a fun game, there's a reason people played this horribly balanced game for 10 years. It's just frustrating that some people with no real skills as game designers can come in and change the game to what they prefer.

If they had kept to these ideas, you avoid alienating a significant part of your playerbase. Right now some people might like it more, but it's been a kick in the balls to a pretty significant group of other players. We all appreciated RE for what it was, and if we had kept true to RE then we wouldn't be having this discussion and I honestly believe EP would've been more popular and well received. The latest series of patches has seemingly really hurt the positivity around EP.
User avatar
United States of America SoldieR
Pro Player
Posts: 2270
Joined: Feb 22, 2015
ESO: SoldieR
Location: Chi City

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by SoldieR »

Man, if DE does well, and brings new people or old people back, they arent to give a damn or know/remember all these changes and will be playing for fun.
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

There's also the problem that game design is actually a terribly difficult process that is essentially a full time professional job. I'm unsure if the EP team really meets the qualifications necessary to do that well. I'm actually unsure if the EP team even understands anything about game design. This alone is a reason why I'd be reluctant to ever touch this area.
User avatar
United States of America Cometk
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7257
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
Location: California

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

  • Quote

Post by Cometk »

Don’t play DE then I guess
Image
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Cometk wrote:Don’t play DE then I guess
I'm indeed afraid I won't get to enjoy DE.
User avatar
Great Britain TheNameDaniel
Advanced Player
Donator 01
Posts: 726
Joined: Sep 13, 2016
ESO: danielek
Location: UK

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by TheNameDaniel »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
Cometk wrote:Don’t play DE then I guess
I'm indeed afraid I won't get to enjoy DE.
what game do you play then, vane patch?
Sweden Hawk_Girl
Dragoon
Donator 01
Posts: 419
Joined: Dec 15, 2015

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by Hawk_Girl »

IAmSoldieR wrote:Did we nerf otto cons los? Please god, that shit is ridiculous. Also please fix water rng, revert tp radius and nerf rattan shipment?
what do you mean with water rng?
Image
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

TheNameDaniel wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:
Cometk wrote:Don’t play DE then I guess
I'm indeed afraid I won't get to enjoy DE.
what game do you play then, vane patch?
RE but mostly nothing at all. I'm mostly busy exploring the principles of game design in different games and watching reviews and critiques of different games.
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by gibson »

Hawk_Girl wrote:
IAmSoldieR wrote:Did we nerf otto cons los? Please god, that shit is ridiculous. Also please fix water rng, revert tp radius and nerf rattan shipment?
what do you mean with water rng?
boat RoF I assume
User avatar
European Union aaryngend
Howdah
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sep 26, 2015
Location: Germany
Clan: N3O

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by aaryngend »

Cometk wrote:Don’t play DE then I guess
You are talking as if the Definitive Edition will incorporate all the EP changes. My guess is they will only apply a chunk of it. But what do I know :hehe:
Zoi is the EP leader, so I guess if they would have loved to incorporate all the changes, they would have hired him to help work with DE. Doubt he would have time to still work on regular aoe3 tbh.
User avatar
Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
ESOC Dev Team
Donator 05
Posts: 4513
Joined: Mar 31, 2015
ESO: EAGLEMUT
Clan: WPact

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

  • Quote

Post by EAGLEMUT »

The wiki pages have now also been fully updated to reflect latest changes :ugeek:
User avatar
Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1899
Joined: Apr 26, 2017
ESO: gamevideo113

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by gamevideo113 »

The faithfulness of the DE to the original RE state is mostly irrelevant (on the contrary, it might be detrimental if the game isn't balanced properly). The majority of players will just see it as AoE3, regardless of the balance changes, since they won't remember how the game was 10 years ago, when they last played it.
1.4 RC (if i'm not mistaken) has been the standard for AoE 2 patch for many years and it had the original broken balance of aoe2 with the first expansions. Then forgotten empires came and made some huge balance and design changes (civs with vills that garrison in houses, don't drop off food and tcs buildable in the feudal age). AoE2 DE looks nothing like the AoE2 of 10 years ago. Yet, nowadays it reaches 20k/30k viewers on twitch on a regular basis, while 2-3 years ago the peak was about 4-5k during the biggest tournaments. I wouldn't say the playerbase was alienated at all.
I'm sure balancing AoE2 was a much easier task than balancing AoE3, but that still doesn't mean RE is ok. RE is not ok, at all. It's fun because AoE3 is fun, but it could be a lot more fun and EP has done a good job of proving that.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019 Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
User avatar
France Rikikipu
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1679
Joined: Feb 27, 2015
ESO: p-of
Location: In your base

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by Rikikipu »

aaryngend wrote:
Cometk wrote:Don’t play DE then I guess
You are talking as if the Definitive Edition will incorporate all the EP changes. My guess is they will only apply a chunk of it. But what do I know :hehe:
Zoi is the EP leader, so I guess if they would have loved to incorporate all the changes, they would have hired him to help work with DE. Doubt he would have time to still work on regular aoe3 tbh.
Some "rumors" are saying that DE is inspired by EP changes, just saying. This means we shouldn't look to the past (trying to stick to RE), but look to the future to make this game as fun and as balanced as possible
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Rikikipu wrote:
aaryngend wrote:
Cometk wrote:Don’t play DE then I guess
You are talking as if the Definitive Edition will incorporate all the EP changes. My guess is they will only apply a chunk of it. But what do I know :hehe:
Zoi is the EP leader, so I guess if they would have loved to incorporate all the changes, they would have hired him to help work with DE. Doubt he would have time to still work on regular aoe3 tbh.
Some rumors are saying that DE is inspired by EP changes, just saying. This means we shouldn't look to the past (trying to stick to RE), but look to the future to make this game as fun and as balanced as possible
It means that we don't have to stick to RE, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't do that.
For many people, the minimal change policy is the most fun and balanced one. Besides, it doesn't split the community.
User avatar
Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1899
Joined: Apr 26, 2017
ESO: gamevideo113

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by gamevideo113 »

About the Sioux change (which is not random, since it is specifically aimed at adressing the sioux's lategame eco which is quite bad):
20 bisons is 10k food indeed. It's enough food to produce 62 axe riders (not even counting decay), which is a significant number but definitely not an amount of food that can carry you forever. And if sioux keeps sending that card it means they're not sending upgrades, which is a trade-off, strategically speaking.
Can we please actually see its effect in action before jumping to conclusions and turning it into a useless change from birth at 10 Bisons? I'm sure Sioux have bigger problems than that.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019 Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
User avatar
European Union aaryngend
Howdah
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sep 26, 2015
Location: Germany
Clan: N3O

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by aaryngend »

Rikikipu wrote:
aaryngend wrote:You are talking as if the Definitive Edition will incorporate all the EP changes. My guess is they will only apply a chunk of it. But what do I know :hehe:
Zoi is the EP leader, so I guess if they would have loved to incorporate all the changes, they would have hired him to help work with DE. Doubt he would have time to still work on regular aoe3 tbh.
Some "rumors" are saying that DE is inspired by EP changes, just saying. This means we shouldn't look to the past (trying to stick to RE), but look to the future to make this game as fun and as balanced as possible
Inspired means inspired, not copied 1:1.
I'm sure some changes of ESOC will make it in, either unaltered or spiced up a bit to fit into the new game, but I'm sure the rest of the changes made will be their own.
We don't know how different DE will be from aoe3 gameplay-wise, so maybe they couldn't even get in a lot of ESOC changes even if they wanted?

RE will play no role in the further development of the DE, it will just be the starting point. I hope they will make sure that the design philosophy stays the same.
User avatar
Australia wardyb1
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sep 20, 2016
ESO: wardyb1
Location: Australia

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by wardyb1 »

I think a lot of the contention between some players and Zoi come from the lack of actual explanations within the explanations. For eg.
– "Blunderbuss" improvement cost reduced to 75f (from 110f)
– "Eastern Medicine" and "Spirit Medicine" improvements cost reduced to 120f (from 150f)
Thank you to Mitoe for suggesting buffing these Market improvements, to boost their viability without significant adverse effects on balance between civilizations.
Ok so they have been cheapened to boost viability. But where is the proof that they aren't viable or that they aren't already widely used? You often see good French players using Blunderbuss to get insane value on the CDB's. Similarly Eastern Medicine is almost always a pickup for defending Asian civs. So it just looks like a random change.
Aztecs
– Arrow Knight ranged attack range decreased to 28 (from 30)
Please note that this nerf, which makes the unit more reasonable to counter at range, does not affect line of sight or siege attack (which is used versus buildings and ships). Thank you to Mitoe for highlighting this issue to me.
Same again really. Makes it more counterable at range, ok. But was the unit overpowered or being abused? When was the last time a mass of uncounterableable arrow knights determined an Aztec 1v1 game? I know it is suggested by Mitoe it is most likely a reasonable change based on top player logic but where is the in-depth reasoning and discussion around the change? What is the need for the change?

I think this is a lot of the anger towards random changes. It is that solutions are being provided, when the problem hasn't been shown to exist yet.
“To love the journey is to accept no such end. I have found, through painful experience, that the most important step a person can take is always the next one.”
User avatar
China _Lcy
Crossbow
Posts: 2
Joined: Mar 31, 2020
ESO: _Lcy

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by _Lcy »

Indians is OP in v1.03 and become stronger now.
User avatar
European Union aaryngend
Howdah
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sep 26, 2015
Location: Germany
Clan: N3O

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by aaryngend »

wardyb1 wrote:I think a lot of the contention between some players and Zoi come from the lack of actual explanations within the explanations. For eg.
– "Blunderbuss" improvement cost reduced to 75f (from 110f)
– "Eastern Medicine" and "Spirit Medicine" improvements cost reduced to 120f (from 150f)
Thank you to Mitoe for suggesting buffing these Market improvements, to boost their viability without significant adverse effects on balance between civilizations.
Ok so they have been cheapened to boost viability. But where is the proof that they aren't viable or that they aren't already widely used? You often see good French players using Blunderbuss to get insane value on the CDB's. Similarly Eastern Medicine is almost always a pickup for defending Asian civs. So it just looks like a random change.
I don't think the change was made for viability reasons. The techs are viable on their own already. The reason to make the vill techs cheaper is that so people can research them without having to worry about not queueing up the 5th unit in the batch.
35 :food: can be the difference between 5 musks and 4 musks, especially early game.
People can get the techs earlier without them putting a toll on their eco.
User avatar
Latvia harcha
Gendarme
Posts: 5136
Joined: Jul 2, 2015
ESO: hatamoto_samurai

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

  • Quote

Post by harcha »

I think these 2 changes only prolong the changelist for no good reason. The medicine techs were already viable and blunderbuss as well. Blunderbuss for non-french is something you want for dealing with 2 cav raids.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
User avatar
European Union aaryngend
Howdah
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sep 26, 2015
Location: Germany
Clan: N3O

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by aaryngend »

harcha wrote:I think these 2 changes only prolong the changelist for no good reason. The medicine techs were already viable and blunderbuss as well. Blunderbuss for non-french is something you want for dealing with 2 cav raids.
How? Blunderbuss is the villager attack tech, not the villager HP tech. Great Coat is the one which boosts survivability of villagers.
User avatar
Latvia harcha
Gendarme
Posts: 5136
Joined: Jul 2, 2015
ESO: hatamoto_samurai

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

  • Quote

Post by harcha »

I know that man. @aaryngend
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

gamevideo113 wrote:The faithfulness of the DE to the original RE state is mostly irrelevant (on the contrary, it might be detrimental if the game isn't balanced properly). The majority of players will just see it as AoE3, regardless of the balance changes, since they won't remember how the game was 10 years ago, when they last played it.
1.4 RC (if i'm not mistaken) has been the standard for AoE 2 patch for many years and it had the original broken balance of aoe2 with the first expansions. Then forgotten empires came and made some huge balance and design changes (civs with vills that garrison in houses, don't drop off food and tcs buildable in the feudal age). AoE2 DE looks nothing like the AoE2 of 10 years ago. Yet, nowadays it reaches 20k/30k viewers on twitch on a regular basis, while 2-3 years ago the peak was about 4-5k during the biggest tournaments. I wouldn't say the playerbase was alienated at all.
I'm sure balancing AoE2 was a much easier task than balancing AoE3, but that still doesn't mean RE is ok. RE is not ok, at all. It's fun because AoE3 is fun, but it could be a lot more fun and EP has done a good job of proving that.
Thing is, many of the aoe2 changes were done by professionals. I'm pretty sure the forgotten empires is a team that consists of multiple people working full time on the game. Game design is a very hard thing to get right. On top of that, aoe2 is still pretty similar to what it was like ten years ago. In terms of the core gameplay loop I don't think much changed. It's an easier game from a design pov, where the diversity and main aspects of the design come from the overall gameplay (to which very little was changed, as far as I can tell) and then you just add some civs with a handful of unique things to it. Aoe3's diversity and fun is much more reliant on civ design than what is the case for aoe2, and thus it's even harder to do a good job in designing the game.

I think we could for example also look at sc2, where game design has been a point of serious struggle for a long time now. It's just really hard to get it right, even when you have a professional team working on it full time.
User avatar
European Union PancakePrincess
Skirmisher
Posts: 127
Joined: Feb 19, 2020
ESO: PancakePrincess

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by PancakePrincess »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:The faithfulness of the DE to the original RE state is mostly irrelevant (on the contrary, it might be detrimental if the game isn't balanced properly). The majority of players will just see it as AoE3, regardless of the balance changes, since they won't remember how the game was 10 years ago, when they last played it.
1.4 RC (if i'm not mistaken) has been the standard for AoE 2 patch for many years and it had the original broken balance of aoe2 with the first expansions. Then forgotten empires came and made some huge balance and design changes (civs with vills that garrison in houses, don't drop off food and tcs buildable in the feudal age). AoE2 DE looks nothing like the AoE2 of 10 years ago. Yet, nowadays it reaches 20k/30k viewers on twitch on a regular basis, while 2-3 years ago the peak was about 4-5k during the biggest tournaments. I wouldn't say the playerbase was alienated at all.
I'm sure balancing AoE2 was a much easier task than balancing AoE3, but that still doesn't mean RE is ok. RE is not ok, at all. It's fun because AoE3 is fun, but it could be a lot more fun and EP has done a good job of proving that.
Thing is, many of the aoe2 changes were done by professionals. I'm pretty sure the forgotten empires is a team that consists of multiple people working full time on the game. Game design is a very hard thing to get right. On top of that, aoe2 is still pretty similar to what it was like ten years ago. In terms of the core gameplay loop I don't think much changed. It's an easier game from a design pov, where the diversity and main aspects of the design come from the overall gameplay (to which very little was changed, as far as I can tell) and then you just add some civs with a handful of unique things to it. Aoe3's diversity and fun is much more reliant on civ design than what is the case for aoe2, and thus it's even harder to do a good job in designing the game.
I don't want to come off as a know it all, but the changes to AoE 2 are spearheaded by an "amateur" and not by a professional. Cysion made Forgotten Empires as a mod first and Microsoft simply cashed in on it by making it official and hiring him. Expanding on this, the original official release of Forgotten Empires (aka AoE 2 HD) was met with a lot of backlash not only because it was a disaster from a technical viewpoint, but also because people weren't happy with some of the gameplay changes as well.

What I'm trying to say is: Cysion may be a professional these days, because MS hired him, but the whole thing started off as one of many amateur projects.
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: ESOC Patch 8.1.0.0 Released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

PancakePrincess wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:The faithfulness of the DE to the original RE state is mostly irrelevant (on the contrary, it might be detrimental if the game isn't balanced properly). The majority of players will just see it as AoE3, regardless of the balance changes, since they won't remember how the game was 10 years ago, when they last played it.
1.4 RC (if i'm not mistaken) has been the standard for AoE 2 patch for many years and it had the original broken balance of aoe2 with the first expansions. Then forgotten empires came and made some huge balance and design changes (civs with vills that garrison in houses, don't drop off food and tcs buildable in the feudal age). AoE2 DE looks nothing like the AoE2 of 10 years ago. Yet, nowadays it reaches 20k/30k viewers on twitch on a regular basis, while 2-3 years ago the peak was about 4-5k during the biggest tournaments. I wouldn't say the playerbase was alienated at all.
I'm sure balancing AoE2 was a much easier task than balancing AoE3, but that still doesn't mean RE is ok. RE is not ok, at all. It's fun because AoE3 is fun, but it could be a lot more fun and EP has done a good job of proving that.
Thing is, many of the aoe2 changes were done by professionals. I'm pretty sure the forgotten empires is a team that consists of multiple people working full time on the game. Game design is a very hard thing to get right. On top of that, aoe2 is still pretty similar to what it was like ten years ago. In terms of the core gameplay loop I don't think much changed. It's an easier game from a design pov, where the diversity and main aspects of the design come from the overall gameplay (to which very little was changed, as far as I can tell) and then you just add some civs with a handful of unique things to it. Aoe3's diversity and fun is much more reliant on civ design than what is the case for aoe2, and thus it's even harder to do a good job in designing the game.
I don't want to come off as a know it all, but the changes to AoE 2 are spearheaded by an "amateur" and not by a professional. Cysion made Forgotten Empires as a mod first and Microsoft simply cashed in on it by making it official and hiring him. Expanding on this, the original official release of Forgotten Empires (aka AoE 2 HD) was met with a lot of backlash not only because it was a disaster from a technical viewpoint, but also because people weren't happy with some of the gameplay changes as well.

What I'm trying to say is: Cysion may be a professional these days, because MS hired him, but the whole thing started off as one of many amateur projects.
Which just goes to show how hard it is to do proper game design, imo.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV