ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

princeofcarthage wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
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And so far he didn't ask knusch, hazza, somp and me. Maybe it's because we're not top20 by Zoi's standard.
Well maybe if you wouldn't spam "zoi resign" and hurl insults at him every now and then maybe he will ask you too! If anyone its you who are responsible for exclusion from what I have read so far.
Ye sure. It used to be a solid argument : "see you're the only top player who's being ignored, that's because you're the issue", but atm half of the top players (if not more) are done with Zoi, and by now it's pretty obvious that Zoi is the issue.
He's so bad at communicating, it's unreal, couldn't even tell the admins (or anyone really) he'd release a patch during a tourney.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by aqwer »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Well maybe if you wouldn't spam "zoi resign" and hurl insults at him every now and then maybe he will ask you too! If anyone its you who are responsible for exclusion from what I have read so far.
Ye sure. It used to be a solid argument : "see you're the only top player who's being ignored, that's because you're the issue", but atm half of the top players (if not more) are done with Zoi, and by now it's pretty obvious that Zoi is the issue.
He's so bad at communicating, it's unreal, couldn't even tell the admins (or anyone really) he'd release a patch during a tourney.
I would say that zoi don't listen to logic and reasoning, top players or not, doesn't matter. Why? Maybe bcz it hurts his ego and puts him in bad light if he has to agree to "other people's" arguments, after all he is the one who has to look smart.
With that being said, zoi still didn't do anything about Cav archers speed, trainable spahi, abus gun "AoE", jan x2.5 vs cav, jan training time. Which are the only logical things to do design wise.

@[Armag] diarouga chess?
#trainableSpahi
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

aqwer wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Ye sure. It used to be a solid argument : "see you're the only top player who's being ignored, that's because you're the issue", but atm half of the top players (if not more) are done with Zoi, and by now it's pretty obvious that Zoi is the issue.
He's so bad at communicating, it's unreal, couldn't even tell the admins (or anyone really) he'd release a patch during a tourney.
I would say that zoi don't listen to logic and reasoning, top players or not, doesn't matter. Why? Maybe bcz it hurts his ego and puts him in bad light if he has to agree to "other people's" arguments, after all he is the one who has to look smart.
With that being said, zoi still didn't do anything about Cav archers speed, trainable spahi, abus gun "AoE", jan x2.5 vs cav, jan training time. Which are the only logical things to do design wise.

@[Armag] diarouga chess?
This is hyperbolic but I partly agree with the first part. He probably thinks that the changes have to come from him, else they can't be good.
I'm on on lichess btw.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by gamevideo113 »

aqwer wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Ye sure. It used to be a solid argument : "see you're the only top player who's being ignored, that's because you're the issue", but atm half of the top players (if not more) are done with Zoi, and by now it's pretty obvious that Zoi is the issue.
He's so bad at communicating, it's unreal, couldn't even tell the admins (or anyone really) he'd release a patch during a tourney.
I would say that zoi don't listen to logic and reasoning, top players or not, doesn't matter. Why? Maybe bcz it hurts his ego and puts him in bad light if he has to agree to "other people's" arguments, after all he is the one who has to look smart.
With that being said, zoi still didn't do anything about Cav archers speed, trainable spahi, abus gun "AoE", jan x2.5 vs cav, jan training time. Which are the only logical things to do design wise.

@[Armag] diarouga chess?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019 Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by zoom »

Hawk_Girl wrote:im not even in it but why would you ever make new patch in the middle of a tourney
Please see OP and below posts.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by zoom »

Astaroth wrote:I don't get why a patch like this is even implemented during a tournament? Who has access to the EP launcher update files? Who makes these calls without consulting anyone? Why does this just happen? Why create an ESOC thread for this?
1. Because it's a minor, low-risk update overwhelmingly featuring tweaks, some of which are urgent to varying degrees depending on whom you ask. I tried to explain this at the very top of the OP, which you may have read.
2. Eaglemut. Possibly a few other people.
3. No one; I make these calls after consulting tons of players actively (directly), and passively (reading player feedback on ESOC).
4. Please see "1" and "3" and the OP, respectively.
5. Only transparency. Without this thread, you might not have known there was an update.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by zoom »

The_Lastsamurai wrote:It’s pretty pathetic how ESOC get bullied into making a hot fix then people like kaiser start crying about war clubs being op after he loses 2 games then he’s pming zoi after the fucking games, this is just a joke I have never seen this kinda balancing in RTS games in my life who the hell does patches mid tournament ?
Actually, bullying, in any sense, is thoroughly ineffective on me. Convincing arguments I find that I'm quite receptive to, however. +20% hand attack is an unnecessarily large buff now that Sioux is significantly stronger than in the past, and the War Club's siege attack was punitively low for a heavy-infantry unit used without Siege Dance. The change seems perfectly sensible to me, without being essential.

As for your question: Anyone confident enough in the given case, I suppose. In this case, I'm confident because most of the changes – including the one you seem so upset by – are no-risk reverts or tweaks (note the distinction between major and minor releases), based on input from a large number of players, on ESOC and elsewhere. Minor, safe updates in active response to evolving feedback are neither undesirable nor unusual.

I'm looking forward to learning of your actual opinion on the impact of the changes, once you've been able to form one. If you prefer not posting on ESOC, you're welcome to PM me your Discord tag, and I'll address you directly, in the future. If you would only do one single thing, you should make it responding to the next balance poll, though. They carry so much weight for major updates.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by zoom »

sebnan12 wrote:but if u make an update middle of a tournament, and there were already so many top players willing to volunteer, why dont u take them aboard.. i dont get it rlly. @zoom u shud rlly start to work openly now!
Please read the OP (and posts adjacent to this one). That's exactly what I did! Unfortunately, some of the loudest ones are less "willing to volunteer" and more "unwilling to be constructive" (rudely so, I might add). You should be able to tell from some of their comments, in various places.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by zoom »

bwinner wrote:5 gardener for an age 3 shipment seems really strong. 5 huss is already one of the best millitary shipment you can have, so a 10% better one sounds quite good. Idk if that's desirable. Especially since they are auto upgraded. Has it been really though?
Kawapasaka wrote:agree with bwinner 5 consulate coss with the fixed RR is already decent this sounds like a classic case of power creep
The shipment seems completely unviable at 4 Gardeners. This is no wonder, given the stiff competition that it faces within the civilization's Fortress shipments. As well, 5 Gardeners seems closer to 9 Redcoats than 4 Gardeners, in terms of impact.

I wouldn't call the change risk-free, but it shouldn't be a very significant problem, on the whole. I'll be keeping an eye on it, too. Thanks!
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by zoom »

zoom wrote:Adding to my comments in the OP – which I strongly recommend that anyone with an interest in the patch reads, let alone before forming an opinion on this release – I would like to note some things:

1. A number of notable players have expressed the probable urgency of several of these changes; most notably tweaks to Indians, "The Shaman" and treasures. I take such feedback seriously, and simultaneously with a grain of salt (knee-jerk reactions must be avoided), which is why this particular release was particularly work-intensive, with regards to determining the merit of these concerns through exhaustive observation of reception and direct discussion with players, as well as the ideal response to them, on such short notice.

2. It is true that the minor updates of EP8.1 and EP8.2 are lacking in transparency, in the sense that their changes were not publically shared, prior to release. This is predominantly a result of the short notice of the updates, which is regrettable yet acceptable considering their minor nature, and my taking this into account when carefully selecting their content, based firmy in active collection of feedback, and the priority of minimizing risk. While EP8.2 features relatively many changes, they are almost entirely slight tweaks, with minimal risk. You should note that I'm consistently transparent in this regard too, for major updates—including EP8, to whose content my similarly transparent balance polls' results are plain to trace, for anyone who is interested in a nuanced perspective on feedback, and its enormous influence on patch updates).

3. To my great shock, it seems that the changes causing the most contoversy relate to addressing the awful Consulate bug, arguably the most urgent item of the update. Please read the comments on related changes, in the OP, and understand that the scope of the changes, to Japanese, is a tiny buff to non-Isolation land units' attack (+0.38 Yumi Archer ranged attack, for example), and a significant nerf to Japanese Isolation units' attack (-0.72 & -14 Konsha Yamabushi hand attack & hitpoints, respectively, for example)—as well as a significant nerf to Yabusame ranged attack. With that said, I will continue to keep a close eye on results, and adapt accordingly.

Thank you all!
To elaborate on "3", I would like to attempt to better explain the nature of the bug: Prior to this update, ending an alliance with British Allies or Japanese Isolation would cause all of the player's land units to permanently lose hitpoints and attack, respectively, which is unacceptable and urgent. Thanks to Eaglemut's work, who found that certain values do not suffer this problem, we've been able to circumvent the bug, by adjusting the value by an acceptable amount.

From a private conversation:

"japanese isolation increases the attack of all land units by 5%; now 7%. 7% is the best value that avoids an unacceptable bug that causes units to permanently lose attack when you end the alliance. it is currently impossible to fix the bug, but in this way, we can avoid it, effectively fixing it. to avoid buffing isolation and japanese, overall, the four units trained at the japanese isolation consulate no longer get default +10% (for example, the konsha yamabushi loses 0.72atk and 14hp, while the yumi archer gains +0.38rgd attack), and what players now consider an unwarranted buff (to the youabuseme) is reverted"
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by harcha »

zoom wrote:
bwinner wrote:5 gardener for an age 3 shipment seems really strong. 5 huss is already one of the best millitary shipment you can have, so a 10% better one sounds quite good. Idk if that's desirable. Especially since they are auto upgraded. Has it been really though?
Kawapasaka wrote:agree with bwinner 5 consulate coss with the fixed RR is already decent this sounds like a classic case of power creep
The shipment seems completely unviable at 4 Gardeners. This is no wonder, given the stiff competition that it faces within the civilization's Fortress shipments. As well, 5 Gardeners seems closer to 9 Redcoats than 4 Gardeners, in terms of impact.

I wouldn't call the change risk-free, but it shouldn't be a very significant problem, on the whole. I'll be keeping an eye on it, too. Thanks!
Please consider the following:
1) Consulate units are stronger due to the 10% atk/hp + auto upgrades not only when the shipment is shipped, but after any further ageups.
2) The intervention shipment gives you the ability to get units not traditionally available to your civilization thus making them inherently more valuable than the units you can make.
3) Considering the points 1. and 2. you could see why intervention on RE was balanced to 4 dop / 4 hus. I think if anything this serves as a reason to balance the 9 musk into 8 musk, not the other way around.

Bonus point:
4) As artillery pieces have a bigger impact to a players composition than an infantry/cavalry unit due to the associated price tag/value, i don't see why they also need the 10% atk/hp boost that was introduced (if i remember correctly the last patch notes). Will we also get boosted portuguese warships and fishing boats? What about petards (which are basically unupgradable units)?

Bonus point #2:
5) You say "completely unviable" but where is that coming from? What is the substantiation to this point?
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POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by harcha »

So my brain is a bit shit so I'll put more thoughts into a separate post:
6) Another reason for reducing intervention unit count: the shipment basically has 4 different outcomes possible for each civilization. This means that it has additional flexibility that no other unit shipment can match.

On a somewhat related note:
The argument about boosting your composition applies also to the dutch 4 hussar shipment. While dutch can (and often should) make hussar during the ageup to fortress, many people (noobs i.e. people of my level) get stuck in the skirm/goon mentality and will forget about the necessity of hand cav. This is exactly where 4 hussar has proved clutch many times.
4 hussar is not a shipment of good value, however i don't think every dutch shipment needs to be equal to shipment of every other civ. If we are going to embrace this approach, we should also do the following boosts: start with spanish getting a 8 hussar shipment instead of 7 before the revolution (just because otto have that), then move the iro industrial shipment of 6 muskets into fortress just because 9 ruyt is a thing, while we are at it also boost the 9 FP in industrial to smth like 14, then we will have to boost the aforementioned 8 hus again into 9 hus because 6 cuir is a shipment that exists. if we don't stop at some point we will end up with germany having a 2 falc shipment in fortress.
My point: some civs will have some worse shipments in terms of value and that is normal. In the particular example of 4 hus i would argue that this shipment doesn't even fit this narrative because it is a good shipment for compositional purposes.

Background of my POV: i am also someone who thinks that it would be fine to nerf the 5 coss 4 coss into 4 coss 4 coss (wasn't this implemented in some very old patch?), and boost the RE spain of 4 lancer 3 lancer into 4 lancer 4 lancer. I am fine with having double shipments. (after all that is what makes my main japan so superior)
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:
zoom wrote: the scope of the changes, to Japanese, is a tiny buff to non-Isolation land units' attack (+0.38 Yumi Archer ranged attack, for example), and a significant nerf to Japanese Isolation units' attack (-0.72 & -14 Konsha Yamabushi hand attack & hitpoints, respectively, for example)—as well as a significant nerf to Yabusame ranged attack. With that said, I will continue to keep a close eye on results, and adapt accordingly.
How much attack did yumi have before consulate buff and bugfix, and how much would they have without this?
So can anyone explain to me what the bug even is? Yumi with japanese consulate are supposed to do 19.95 damage, and in my testing they basically do 19.95 damage. What is the problem exactly? Where is this bug happening?

And if there is a bug that is meaningfully lowering the attack value for units, you're doing more than giving them a 2% attack boost. This story just doesn't check out, in the case for yumi archers there is no bug, so I assume there is a bug somewhere then? If that's the case, it seems extremely disingenuous to then use the yumi example to defend this buff, because for the bugged units it will actually be a larger attack increase.
@zoom I know you always ignore me, but can you please adress this? For yumis there doesnt seem to be a bug. So what is the bug even?
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by sebnan12 »

harcha wrote:So my brain is a bit shit so I'll put more thoughts into a separate post:
6) Another reason for reducing intervention unit count: the shipment basically has 4 different outcomes possible for each civilization. This means that it has additional flexibility that no other unit shipment can match.

On a somewhat related note:
The argument about boosting your composition applies also to the dutch 4 hussar shipment. While dutch can (and often should) make hussar during the ageup to fortress, many people (noobs i.e. people of my level) get stuck in the skirm/goon mentality and will forget about the necessity of hand cav. This is exactly where 4 hussar has proved clutch many times.
4 hussar is not a shipment of good value, however i don't think every dutch shipment needs to be equal to shipment of every other civ. If we are going to embrace this approach, we should also do the following boosts: start with spanish getting a 8 hussar shipment instead of 7 before the revolution (just because otto have that), then move the iro industrial shipment of 6 muskets into fortress just because 9 ruyt is a thing, while we are at it also boost the 9 FP in industrial to smth like 14, then we will have to boost the aforementioned 8 hus again into 9 hus because 6 cuir is a shipment that exists. if we don't stop at some point we will end up with germany having a 2 falc shipment in fortress.
My point: some civs will have some worse shipments in terms of value and that is normal. In the particular example of 4 hus i would argue that this shipment doesn't even fit this narrative because it is a good shipment for compositional purposes.

Background of my POV: i am also someone who thinks that it would be fine to nerf the 5 coss 4 coss into 4 coss 4 coss (wasn't this implemented in some very old patch?), and boost the RE spain of 4 lancer 3 lancer into 4 lancer 4 lancer. I am fine with having double shipments. (after all that is what makes my main japan so superior)
exactly this.. if u start changing unit shipments then do so equaly for every civ not just start with intervention ebcause u find it undewhelming.. its areally strong shipment tbh
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

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Post by EAGLEMUT »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:
Show hidden quotes
So can anyone explain to me what the bug even is? Yumi with japanese consulate are supposed to do 19.95 damage, and in my testing they basically do 19.95 damage. What is the problem exactly? Where is this bug happening?

And if there is a bug that is meaningfully lowering the attack value for units, you're doing more than giving them a 2% attack boost. This story just doesn't check out, in the case for yumi archers there is no bug, so I assume there is a bug somewhere then? If that's the case, it seems extremely disingenuous to then use the yumi example to defend this buff, because for the bugged units it will actually be a larger attack increase.
@zoom I know you always ignore me, but can you please adress this? For yumis there doesnt seem to be a bug. So what is the bug even?
1. launch RE
2. create a Yumi Archer
3. look at its attack, see 19
4. use consulate to get Japanese isolation
5. break the consulate alliance
6. look at your Yumi Archer attack once again, see 18
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by edeholland »

@p0cA Just want to point out that tagging the @ESOCommunity account has no use, the account is not being used. I also want to ask you to stay on-topic here and not make personal attacks against other users.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

EAGLEMUT wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:
Show hidden quotes
@zoom I know you always ignore me, but can you please adress this? For yumis there doesnt seem to be a bug. So what is the bug even?
1. launch RE
2. create a Yumi Archer
3. look at its attack, see 19
4. use consulate to get Japanese isolation
5. break the consulate alliance
6. look at your Yumi Archer attack once again, see 18
So its something that only happens when cancelling japanese isolation?

What is the actual damage of the yumi archer though? It is 18.0 or 18.99? Both will show as 18, but if its 18.99 it will effectively be 19 damage.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by EAGLEMUT »

Actually, my example is kinda bad since there is also a second separate bug on RE, but anyway the steps to reproduce would be same on EP < 8.2.
RefluxSemantic wrote:So its something that only happens when cancelling japanese isolation?
The calculation can be wrong both ways, and was also happening with the brit alliance. So, no, it's a bigger issue with various techs/units.
RefluxSemantic wrote:What is the actual damage of the yumi archer though? It is 18.0 or 18.99?
18.99
RefluxSemantic wrote:Both will show as 18, but if its 18.99 it will effectively be 19 damage.
Well, if you attack a unit with 19hp left, it can be the difference between killing or not killing the unit and leaving it at "0" hp.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

So this 'terrible' bug only happens if you ally to the japanese consulate, then break the alliance (which, by the way, never happens) and then attack a unit that has exactly 19 hp?

I wont dispute that this is a bug that would preferably be fixed. But does the end justify the means here? This is an extremely minor bug. The buff that is being used to fix this bug is far larger.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

RefluxSemantic wrote:So this 'terrible' bug only happens if you ally to the japanese consulate, then break the alliance (which, by the way, never happens) and then attack a unit that has exactly 19 hp?

I wont dispute that this is a bug that would preferably be fixed. But does the end justify the means here? This is an extremely minor bug. The buff that is being used to fix this bug is far larger.
I agree that buffing Japan to fix a bug is not a good idea, however breaking the japanese consulate happens sometimes.
Usually, you want to start with the port consulate, and switch the japanese consulate later. In late game however, you need the bank, the arsenal and the church from the Dutch consulate, so if the game goes on, you have to break the japanese alliance.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by EAGLEMUT »

RefluxSemantic wrote:So this 'terrible' bug only happens if you ally to the japanese consulate, then break the alliance (which, by the way, never happens) and then attack a unit that has exactly 19 hp?
Not only. Like I said, it also happens when you simply ally, so a unit would get less attack / hp than it should (perhaps not the Yumi Archer specifically). It's just most easily noticeable by breaking it.
RefluxSemantic wrote:The buff that is being used to fix this bug is far larger.
Which is why it's been already compensated by a nerf of jap isolation units in the same update. Did you miss that?
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:So this 'terrible' bug only happens if you ally to the japanese consulate, then break the alliance (which, by the way, never happens) and then attack a unit that has exactly 19 hp?

I wont dispute that this is a bug that would preferably be fixed. But does the end justify the means here? This is an extremely minor bug. The buff that is being used to fix this bug is far larger.
I agree that buffing Japan to fix a bug is not a good idea, however breaking the japanese consulate happens sometimes.
Usually, you want to start with the port consulate, and switch the japanese consulate later. In late game however, you need the bank, the arsenal and the church from the Dutch consulate, so if the game goes on, you have to break the japanese alliance.
Its only 0.01 attack in this case though. You need to somehow find a scenario where exactly 0.01 attack matters.

That might seem plausible at first, with the example eaglemut gave. But actually after the veteran upgrade yumis would have 19+3.8 = 22.8 attack anyways. So 22.88 or 22.87 is not going to make much of a difference.

It really only matters in the rare case where this 0.01 reduction in attack causes the attack to drop below a perfect integer value. Does such a unit even exist? Yumis have a bonus against HI/ranged cav, causing the attack value to not be an integer and thus causing this bug to basically not do anything and all other units I can think of have ranged resist (also causing a non inter value for the yumi attack). So for yumis this basically never happens in a real scenario.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

I wonder in how many scenarios this bug realistically affects things. It really only matters when 0.01 damage means the difference between killing a unit or not - and this is overwhelmingly rare in real game scenarios.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Why can't the UI display correctly rounded up stats instead of cutting off the decimal digits ?
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

I think the UI always rounds down the values, but the real attack is decimal.

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