ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

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New Zealand zoom
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by zoom »

knusch wrote:
By now, it is clear to me that the Colonial age "The Shaman" buff is a both fundamentally sound and popular change
u have to be kidding, right?
Not at all. Other than reading ESOC forums, I discussed the change – among many other issues – with over 20 top players, of whom a clear majority were negative towards reverting the change. What's more, all of the negative opinions towards the change centered around it being too strong – I can't remember more than a few players (if that) making the case that it's a bad change, outside of possibly being overpowered, which these changes very much address.

Given that it was considered overpowered by many players, prior to 8.2 (which you'd expect to cause bias against the change), I was surprised, too. It goes to show the importance of not making assumptions based on one's own opinion(s), and the quality of feedback (in detail and sample size, in this case).

I'm very interested to see what players will think of the change, after testing it in an arguably more balanced state.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by zoom »

Goodspeed wrote:Need is a strong word but yeah it's definitely a good idea to inform them about it. Did @Cometk really not know about it? It seems unlike Zoi not to communicate it, but hey, everyone makes mistakes.
edeholland wrote:
Astaroth wrote:I don't get why a patch like this is even implemented during a tournament? Who has access to the EP launcher update files? Who makes these calls without consulting anyone? Why does this just happen?
Eaglemut has access to the code along with a few other developers. To me it seems like Eaglemut implements what Zoom tells him to, so I wouldn't put any blame on him. Why this just happens is a question a lot of staff members currently have, so please know that we are discussing the matter, it's not being ignored.
Why create an ESOC thread for this?
To inform people of the changes and facilitate a discussion.
I communicated it to both Eaglemut and Mitoe, well in advance. I thought I had told Cometk, too, since I had discussed the update with him, several times. In case I failed to do so, that were an unusual mistake.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:Who cares if there's a small update mid tourney honestly lol. Like it's gonna fundamentally change the way players perform... If there was a communication problem among the staff that's another story, but players should really stop nitpicking as if suddenly the whole game has changed and the EPL is gonna be super impacted lol
Exactly; it's in the nature of the update, and its content.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by Zeke »

zoom wrote: the scope of the changes, to Japanese, is a tiny buff to non-Isolation land units' attack (+0.38 Yumi Archer ranged attack, for example), and a significant nerf to Japanese Isolation units' attack (-0.72 & -14 Konsha Yamabushi hand attack & hitpoints, respectively, for example)—as well as a significant nerf to Yabusame ranged attack. With that said, I will continue to keep a close eye on results, and adapt accordingly.
For anyone who thinks Jap got BUFFED by this patch :hmm:
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

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Post by knusch »

zoom wrote:
knusch wrote:
By now, it is clear to me that the Colonial age "The Shaman" buff is a both fundamentally sound and popular change
u have to be kidding, right?
Not at all. Other than reading ESOC forums, I discussed the change – among many other issues – with over 20 top players, of whom a clear majority were negative towards reverting the change. What's more, all of the negative opinions towards the change centered around it being too strong – I can't remember more than a few players (if that) making the case that it's a bad change, outside of possibly being overpowered, which these changes very much address.

Given that it was considered overpowered by many players, prior to 8.2 (which you'd expect to cause bias against the change), I was surprised, too. It goes to show the importance of not making assumptions based on one's own opinion(s), and the quality of feedback (in detail and sample size, in this case).

I'm very interested to see what players will think of the change, after testing it in an arguably more balanced state.
u got feedback by 20 top players?^^

i'm sry but this is just delusional...
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

zoom wrote: the scope of the changes, to Japanese, is a tiny buff to non-Isolation land units' attack (+0.38 Yumi Archer ranged attack, for example), and a significant nerf to Japanese Isolation units' attack (-0.72 & -14 Konsha Yamabushi hand attack & hitpoints, respectively, for example)—as well as a significant nerf to Yabusame ranged attack. With that said, I will continue to keep a close eye on results, and adapt accordingly.
How much attack did yumi have before consulate buff and bugfix, and how much would they have without this?
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by Hazza54321 »

which 20 players is he asking considering me dia somp and knusch are 4 of the top 20 and we dont seem to agree.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Hazza54321 wrote:which 20 players is he asking considering me dia somp and knusch are 4 of the top 20 and we dont seem to agree.
Yea. Maybe he meant 10 of the top 50 players by that 20 top players.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Zoi probably thinks 1st lts are top players
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
zoom wrote: the scope of the changes, to Japanese, is a tiny buff to non-Isolation land units' attack (+0.38 Yumi Archer ranged attack, for example), and a significant nerf to Japanese Isolation units' attack (-0.72 & -14 Konsha Yamabushi hand attack & hitpoints, respectively, for example)—as well as a significant nerf to Yabusame ranged attack. With that said, I will continue to keep a close eye on results, and adapt accordingly.
How much attack did yumi have before consulate buff and bugfix, and how much would they have without this?
So can anyone explain to me what the bug even is? Yumi with japanese consulate are supposed to do 19.95 damage, and in my testing they basically do 19.95 damage. What is the problem exactly? Where is this bug happening?

And if there is a bug that is meaningfully lowering the attack value for units, you're doing more than giving them a 2% attack boost. This story just doesn't check out, in the case for yumi archers there is no bug, so I assume there is a bug somewhere then? If that's the case, it seems extremely disingenuous to then use the yumi example to defend this buff, because for the bugged units it will actually be a larger attack increase.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

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Post by EAGLEMUT »

knusch wrote:
zoom wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Not at all. Other than reading ESOC forums, I discussed the change – among many other issues – with over 20 top players, of whom a clear majority were negative towards reverting the change. What's more, all of the negative opinions towards the change centered around it being too strong – I can't remember more than a few players (if that) making the case that it's a bad change, outside of possibly being overpowered, which these changes very much address.

Given that it was considered overpowered by many players, prior to 8.2 (which you'd expect to cause bias against the change), I was surprised, too. It goes to show the importance of not making assumptions based on one's own opinion(s), and the quality of feedback (in detail and sample size, in this case).

I'm very interested to see what players will think of the change, after testing it in an arguably more balanced state.
u got feedback by 20 top players?^^

i'm sry but this is just delusional...
Perhaps what's delusional is thinking that Zoi doesn't take feedback from anyone and implements "random" changes by himself.
I know which one of those seem delusional to me.
Image
momuuu wrote: ↑theres no way eaglemut is truly a top player
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

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Post by knusch »

EAGLEMUT wrote:
knusch wrote:
Show hidden quotes
u got feedback by 20 top players?^^

i'm sry but this is just delusional...
Perhaps what's delusional is thinking that Zoi doesn't take feedback from anyone and implements "random" changes by himself.
I know which one of those seem delusional to me.
i couldnt even name u 20 ppl i consider "top", but ofc your bff for suuuuuuuure consulted with that many amazing players to come to this conclusion....
:flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers:
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by princeofcarthage »

You answered yourself. To quote "20 ppl I consider top"
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

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Post by knusch »

princeofcarthage wrote:You answered yourself. To quote "20 ppl I consider top"
do u count yourself to be part of these elite 20 top players?
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by princeofcarthage »

knusch wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:You answered yourself. To quote "20 ppl I consider top"
do u count yourself to be part of these elite 20 top players?
I don't see relevance, please explain.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by knusch »

princeofcarthage wrote:
knusch wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:You answered yourself. To quote "20 ppl I consider top"
do u count yourself to be part of these elite 20 top players?
I don't see relevance, please explain.
have u been asked to give feedback regarding this change?
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by princeofcarthage »

knusch wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:
Show hidden quotes
I don't see relevance, please explain.
have u been asked to give feedback regarding this change?
I don't think you understand. Let me elaborate. This is your original statement.
i couldnt even name u 20 ppl i consider "top", but ofc your bff for suuuuuuuure consulted with that many amazing players to come to this conclusion....
:flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers:
i couldnt even name u 20 ppl i consider "top",
-> This implies you don't think there are even 20 players who can be considered "top". Of course this is your opinion and you are entitled to it but this is not a measurable metric and hence irrelevant. A more measurable metric is say top 20 players according to 1v1 EP elo (consider this an example before you start nitpicking words). In which case its completely possible that Zoi took opinion of most of them.

Where do you see me giving feedback regarding change?
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

princeofcarthage wrote:
knusch wrote:
Show hidden quotes
have u been asked to give feedback regarding this change?
I don't think you understand. Let me elaborate. This is your original statement.
i couldnt even name u 20 ppl i consider "top", but ofc your bff for suuuuuuuure consulted with that many amazing players to come to this conclusion....
:flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers:
i couldnt even name u 20 ppl i consider "top",
-> This implies you don't think there are even 20 players who can be considered "top". Of course this is your opinion and you are entitled to it but this is not a measurable metric and hence irrelevant. A more measurable metric is say top 20 players according to 1v1 EP elo (consider this an example before you start nitpicking words). In which case its completely possible that Zoi took opinion of most of them.

Where do you see me giving feedback regarding change?
And so far he didn't ask knusch, hazza, somp and me. Maybe it's because we're not top20 by Zoi's standard.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by Jotunir »

Instead of fighting each other we could be asking more interesting questions. For example:

What can we expect for ESOC patch 9.0.0.0 regarding balance changes?

Will Garja's "suggestions" be taken into account?
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by knusch »

princeofcarthage wrote:
knusch wrote:
Show hidden quotes
have u been asked to give feedback regarding this change?
I don't think you understand. Let me elaborate. This is your original statement.
i couldnt even name u 20 ppl i consider "top", but ofc your bff for suuuuuuuure consulted with that many amazing players to come to this conclusion....
:flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers:
i couldnt even name u 20 ppl i consider "top",
-> This implies you don't think there are even 20 players who can be considered "top". Of course this is your opinion and you are entitled to it but this is not a measurable metric and hence irrelevant. A more measurable metric is say top 20 players according to 1v1 EP elo (consider this an example before you start nitpicking words). In which case its completely possible that Zoi took opinion of most of them.

Where do you see me giving feedback regarding change?
first of all i'd rly like to thank u for eleborating to help me understand it!
now let me help u to understand what i tried to imply with "i couldnt even name u 20 ppl i consider "top"". if u asked me rn to name 20 top players, i would have a hard time doing so. it is even harder for me to believe that zoi has feedback of 20 top players to conclude this: "buff is a both fundamentally sound and popular change". believe it or not i speak with some here and there....
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by princeofkabul »

knusch wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:
Show hidden quotes
I don't think you understand. Let me elaborate. This is your original statement.
i couldnt even name u 20 ppl i consider "top", but ofc your bff for suuuuuuuure consulted with that many amazing players to come to this conclusion....
:flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers:
i couldnt even name u 20 ppl i consider "top",
-> This implies you don't think there are even 20 players who can be considered "top". Of course this is your opinion and you are entitled to it but this is not a measurable metric and hence irrelevant. A more measurable metric is say top 20 players according to 1v1 EP elo (consider this an example before you start nitpicking words). In which case its completely possible that Zoi took opinion of most of them.

Where do you see me giving feedback regarding change?
first of all i'd rly like to thank u for eleborating to help me understand it!
now let me help u to understand what i tried to imply with "i couldnt even name u 20 ppl i consider "top"". if u asked me rn to name 20 top players, i would have a hard time doing so. it is even harder for me to believe that zoi has feedback of 20 top players to conclude this: "buff is a both fundamentally sound and popular change". believe it or not i speak with some here and there....
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by princeofkabul »

i like 2 warhut change but it is too strong. construction time nerf not enough to justify it. i think it's good for a civ to have atleast 2 options for aging rather than one. (aztec fast age)
in this case politician option just changed, and it is still 1 option, 2 warhut instead of fast age.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

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Post by princeofkabul »

hazza stop liking my posts im still mad at you
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by TheNameDaniel »

princeofkabul wrote:
knusch wrote:
Show hidden quotes
first of all i'd rly like to thank u for eleborating to help me understand it!
now let me help u to understand what i tried to imply with "i couldnt even name u 20 ppl i consider "top"". if u asked me rn to name 20 top players, i would have a hard time doing so. it is even harder for me to believe that zoi has feedback of 20 top players to conclude this: "buff is a both fundamentally sound and popular change". believe it or not i speak with some here and there....
lies
I can confirm he asked me about the changes!
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by princeofcarthage »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:
Show hidden quotes
I don't think you understand. Let me elaborate. This is your original statement.
i couldnt even name u 20 ppl i consider "top", but ofc your bff for suuuuuuuure consulted with that many amazing players to come to this conclusion....
:flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers:
i couldnt even name u 20 ppl i consider "top",
-> This implies you don't think there are even 20 players who can be considered "top". Of course this is your opinion and you are entitled to it but this is not a measurable metric and hence irrelevant. A more measurable metric is say top 20 players according to 1v1 EP elo (consider this an example before you start nitpicking words). In which case its completely possible that Zoi took opinion of most of them.

Where do you see me giving feedback regarding change?
And so far he didn't ask knusch, hazza, somp and me. Maybe it's because we're not top20 by Zoi's standard.
Well maybe if you wouldn't spam "zoi resign" and hurl insults at him every now and then maybe he will ask you too! If anyone its you who are responsible for exclusion from what I have read so far.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.

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