ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by deleted_user0 »

– "Japanese Isolation" attack bonus reverted to +7% (from 5.5%); units no longer receive +10% attack & hitpoints; description updated
As clearly stated, the sole reason for this originally miniscule buff was the circumvention of a big bad bug. It has since been discovered that the change did not manage to achieve this intended objective, hence it being tweaked. It's caused no significant balance issues, until this tweak to (successfully, Eaglemut & Garja willing) resolve the issue—which is why I am being so bold as to implement limited rebalancing of certain Consulate features, ahead of EP9, particularly since Japanese has been on a consistent upwards trend – both in player-perceived performance and in usage. The shrewd PR-stunt would have been to leave this awful bug in the game until EP9, but that's just too detrimental to the game and thus too irresponsible for me to bear. This compensatory, general nerf to Japanese Isolation seems the way to go, lest late-game scaling improve, on top of which individual cost increases have a tendency to do either nothing or too much in the early-game, specifically, which were risky and unpredictable.
Can somebody help a non-native speaker to explain why did japan get buffed again? What is this text saying? Why does it say "revert"?
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by deleted_user0 »

I don't know how I didn't think of tweaking the shipment penalty being preferable to a House cost buff, until recently. Incidentally, I also realized – recently – that apart from Sepoy mono-compositions, EP has buffed every single unit composition other than Gurkha-Zamburak-Howdah ("Skirm-Goon", some would call it).
Sometimes we get things wrong.
What does this mean? Why is the Skirm-Goon mentioned? What have we gotten wrong?
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by dansil92 »

Out of curiosity should the french consulate bonus not be buffed to prevent awkward decimal points too?
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

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Post by RefluxSemantic »

somppukunkku wrote:
– "Japanese Isolation" attack bonus reverted to +7% (from 5.5%); units no longer receive +10% attack & hitpoints; description updated
As clearly stated, the sole reason for this originally miniscule buff was the circumvention of a big bad bug. It has since been discovered that the change did not manage to achieve this intended objective, hence it being tweaked. It's caused no significant balance issues, until this tweak to (successfully, Eaglemut & Garja willing) resolve the issue—which is why I am being so bold as to implement limited rebalancing of certain Consulate features, ahead of EP9, particularly since Japanese has been on a consistent upwards trend – both in player-perceived performance and in usage. The shrewd PR-stunt would have been to leave this awful bug in the game until EP9, but that's just too detrimental to the game and thus too irresponsible for me to bear. This compensatory, general nerf to Japanese Isolation seems the way to go, lest late-game scaling improve, on top of which individual cost increases have a tendency to do either nothing or too much in the early-game, specifically, which were risky and unpredictable.
Can somebody help a non-native speaker to explain why did japan get buffed again? What is this text saying? Why does it say "revert"?
So I wont try to explain that confusing message, but this is how I understand it:

Apperantly there is some buf with how consulate buffs are being applied to unit stats. For example, Sepoy with 180 hp with 5% consulate should have 189 hp, but they end up having 188 hp. For some reason this happens, and they didn't manage to fix the bug.

So supposedly (I'm assuming things here) this 7% fixes this bug, for some reason. I don't understand how this fixes the bug though, or how the values really end up (I might test this later on). But apperantly this fixes this minor bug.

Now zoi then goes on to defend this change. He claims that this bug is terrible, even though the bug has been in the game for over 11 years without causing significant problems. But for some reason it's so unacceptable that Zoi decided it would be good to buff Japan to circumvent it.

I hope this clears things up a little bit. Japan got buffed, because of some 11 year old bug that has never caused any real problems. If that's still confusing to you, it's also confusing to me.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by deleted_user »

This is why it takes years for Congress to pass shit
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by Qosashvili93 »

This is what quarantine does
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by Jotunir »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:
– "Japanese Isolation" attack bonus reverted to +7% (from 5.5%); units no longer receive +10% attack & hitpoints; description updated
As clearly stated, the sole reason for this originally miniscule buff was the circumvention of a big bad bug. It has since been discovered that the change did not manage to achieve this intended objective, hence it being tweaked. It's caused no significant balance issues, until this tweak to (successfully, Eaglemut & Garja willing) resolve the issue—which is why I am being so bold as to implement limited rebalancing of certain Consulate features, ahead of EP9, particularly since Japanese has been on a consistent upwards trend – both in player-perceived performance and in usage. The shrewd PR-stunt would have been to leave this awful bug in the game until EP9, but that's just too detrimental to the game and thus too irresponsible for me to bear. This compensatory, general nerf to Japanese Isolation seems the way to go, lest late-game scaling improve, on top of which individual cost increases have a tendency to do either nothing or too much in the early-game, specifically, which were risky and unpredictable.
Can somebody help a non-native speaker to explain why did japan get buffed again? What is this text saying? Why does it say "revert"?
So I wont try to explain that confusing message, but this is how I understand it:

Apperantly there is some buf with how consulate buffs are being applied to unit stats. For example, Sepoy with 180 hp with 5% consulate should have 189 hp, but they end up having 188 hp. For some reason this happens, and they didn't manage to fix the bug.

So supposedly (I'm assuming things here) this 7% fixes this bug, for some reason. I don't understand how this fixes the bug though, or how the values really end up (I might test this later on). But apperantly this fixes this minor bug.

Now zoi then goes on to defend this change. He claims that this bug is terrible, even though the bug has been in the game for over 11 years without causing significant problems. But for some reason it's so unacceptable that Zoi decided it would be good to buff Japan to circumvent it.

I hope this clears things up a little bit. Japan got buffed, because of some 11 year old bug that has never caused any real problems. If that's still confusing to you, it's also confusing to me.
Keep in mind that Japan has been significantly nerfed from it's RE version so this small percentage buff isn't going to make much of a difference other than to circumvent this bug. It's not a game changer.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Jotunir wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:
Show hidden quotes
So I wont try to explain that confusing message, but this is how I understand it:

Apperantly there is some buf with how consulate buffs are being applied to unit stats. For example, Sepoy with 180 hp with 5% consulate should have 189 hp, but they end up having 188 hp. For some reason this happens, and they didn't manage to fix the bug.

So supposedly (I'm assuming things here) this 7% fixes this bug, for some reason. I don't understand how this fixes the bug though, or how the values really end up (I might test this later on). But apperantly this fixes this minor bug.

Now zoi then goes on to defend this change. He claims that this bug is terrible, even though the bug has been in the game for over 11 years without causing significant problems. But for some reason it's so unacceptable that Zoi decided it would be good to buff Japan to circumvent it.

I hope this clears things up a little bit. Japan got buffed, because of some 11 year old bug that has never caused any real problems. If that's still confusing to you, it's also confusing to me.
Keep in mind that Japan has been significantly nerfed from it's RE version so this small percentage buff isn't going to make much of a difference other than to circumvent this bug. It's not a game changer.
???????

Which significant changes are you talking about? Japan is currently considered to possibly need a nerf, and Zoi buffs them in this patch.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by Mitoe »

The Japan 7% is a mistake or typo I think.

Anyway, everyone is overreacting. The only change that might need to be reverted for the duration of the event is the Aztec politician change, since people have been practicing with that a lot.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by Jotunir »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
Jotunir wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Keep in mind that Japan has been significantly nerfed from it's RE version so this small percentage buff isn't going to make much of a difference other than to circumvent this bug. It's not a game changer.
???????

Which significant changes are you talking about? Japan is currently considered to possibly need a nerf, and Zoi buffs them in this patch.
"Japanese Isolation" attack bonus increased to 7% (from 5%); units no longer receive +10% attack & hitpoints; description updated accordingly
“Bushido Principles” improvement cost increased to 325xprt (from 250xprt)
Golden Pavilion wonder ranged unit attack bonus decreased to 10% (from 15%)
"TEAM Chonindo" shipment no longer affects hunting or livestock gather-rates
Shogun Tokugawa aura decreased to +10% hitpoints (from 20%); cost increased to 750c (from 350c); bounties adjusted to 75xp (from 35xp)
"Bakufu" shipment Daimyo & Shogun work-rate bonus decreased to 50% (from 100%)
Shogunate wonder Industrial Age bonus decreased to 600xp (from 1600xp, the Imperial Age value)
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

I think it's pretty stupid to compare anything to RE. After all of the changes before ep 8.2, Japan was considered to be slightly too strong. In ep 8.2 they arguably receive an overall buff. That is very strange. It's not really relevant to start talking about very old changes, which caused Japan to be a bit too strong in the first place.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by EAGLEMUT »

Mitoe wrote:The Japan 7% is a mistake or typo I think.
Yeah it's not a revert by any means. Wording fixed.
I also forgot to adjust the in-game description as we wanted, damn.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by Zeke »

RefluxSemantic wrote:I think it's pretty stupid to compare anything to RE. After all of the changes before ep 8.2, Japan was considered to be slightly too strong. In ep 8.2 they arguably receive an overall buff. That is very strange. It's not really relevant to start talking about very old changes, which caused Japan to be a bit too strong in the first place.
Jap gets 1.5% att, one more besteiro/tercio, while jap cons units and tech get a big nerf compares with the previous patch (also revert yabusame), I don't think it's an overall buff tbh.
For this 1.5% attack boost, u only got 1 more att when ur unit has 67 att :hmm: (maybe less with the decimal problem), which barely matters. And as stated, it's rather a bug fix, not a buff at all.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Zeke wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:I think it's pretty stupid to compare anything to RE. After all of the changes before ep 8.2, Japan was considered to be slightly too strong. In ep 8.2 they arguably receive an overall buff. That is very strange. It's not really relevant to start talking about very old changes, which caused Japan to be a bit too strong in the first place.
Jap gets 1.5% att, one more besteiro/tercio, while jap cons units and tech get a big nerf compares with the previous patch (also revert yabusame), I don't think it's an overall buff tbh.
For this 1.5% attack boost, u only got 1 more att when ur unit has 67 att :hmm: (maybe less with the decimal problem), which barely matters. And as stated, it's rather a bug fix, not a buff at all.
I think the 5% apperantly has always been less than 5%. So even fixing the bug will be a buff. You gotta wonder if this is worth it, especially in the middle of a tournament.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by Zeke »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
Zeke wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:I think it's pretty stupid to compare anything to RE. After all of the changes before ep 8.2, Japan was considered to be slightly too strong. In ep 8.2 they arguably receive an overall buff. That is very strange. It's not really relevant to start talking about very old changes, which caused Japan to be a bit too strong in the first place.
Jap gets 1.5% att, one more besteiro/tercio, while jap cons units and tech get a big nerf compares with the previous patch (also revert yabusame), I don't think it's an overall buff tbh.
For this 1.5% attack boost, u only got 1 more att when ur unit has 67 att :hmm: (maybe less with the decimal problem), which barely matters. And as stated, it's rather a bug fix, not a buff at all.
I think the 5% apperantly has always been less than 5%. So even fixing the bug will be a buff. You gotta wonder if this is worth it, especially in the middle of a tournament.
Yeah, the time of release is kinda improper, I'm not sure about this bug stuff, guess I should get the data test out first.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

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Post by dansil92 »

I would like to state that I believe rajputs have been overbuffed. With just a single colonial card they now share nearly identical attack stats to a russian halbs, but with 5.5 speed and 50% more damage to cavalry (3x instead of 2x)- or (to put another way) more than double a rodeleros damage. When dutch halbs get the speed boost a penalty vs infantry is added and that may be needed with rajputs now, as they currently can 1v1 nearly every single colonial unit I've tested them against. The 5.5 speed and 30% damage buff to an already unusually strong melee attack is of concern to me considering you cannot kite them for more than a coule seconds
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by Jotunir »

dansil92 wrote:I would like to state that I believe rajputs have been overbuffed. With just a single colonial card they now share nearly identical attack stats to a russian halbs, but with 5.5 speed and 50% more damage to cavalry (3x instead of 2x)- or (to put another way) more than double a rodeleros damage. When dutch halbs get the speed boost a penalty vs infantry is added and that may be needed with rajputs now, as they currently can 1v1 nearly every single colonial unit I've tested them against. The 5.5 speed and 30% damage buff to an already unusually strong melee attack is of concern to me considering you cannot kite them for more than a coule seconds
I suspected this could happen when I read the patch notes, perhaps removing that extra 15% and/or nerfing Rajputs multiplier against cavalry a bit to be in line with Rodeleros or Halbardiers for the next patch. India in general is tough to balance properly because of their strange units.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by dansil92 »

I did have one other concern- i mentioned it earlier but i think it was missed: does the french consulate have a decimal point related bug regarding its passive bonus, and need to be updated to 7% or 10% or whatever gives a consistent result? Its current bonus is currently a little underwhelming anyways
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by aqwer »

Still you missed abus gun with "AoE". @zoom

viewtopic.php?f=159&t=20217
#trainableSpahi
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

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Post by Hazza54321 »

abus guns are in aoe
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

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Post by Plantinator »

aqwer wrote:Still you missed abus gun with "AoE". @zoom

viewtopic.php?f=159&t=20217
Jeez i think u should just make ur own Patch where u can do w/e u want. I would suggest the Name "otto mirror all the way patch"
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by zoom »

Adding to my comments in the OP – which I strongly recommend that anyone with an interest in the patch reads, let alone before forming an opinion on this release – I would like to note some things:

1. A number of notable players have expressed the probable urgency of several of these changes; most notably tweaks to Indians, "The Shaman" and treasures. I take such feedback seriously, and simultaneously with a grain of salt (knee-jerk reactions must be avoided), which is why this particular release was particularly work-intensive, with regards to determining the merit of these concerns through exhaustive observation of reception and direct discussion with players, as well as the ideal response to them, on such short notice.

2. It is true that the minor updates of EP8.1 and EP8.2 are lacking in transparency, in the sense that their changes were not publically shared, prior to release. This is predominantly a result of the short notice of the updates, which is regrettable yet acceptable considering their minor nature, and my taking this into account when carefully selecting their content, based firmy in active collection of feedback, and the priority of minimizing risk. While EP8.2 features relatively many changes, they are almost entirely slight tweaks, with minimal risk. You should note that I'm consistently transparent in this regard too, for major updates—including EP8, to whose content my similarly transparent balance polls' results are plain to trace, for anyone who is interested in a nuanced perspective on feedback, and its enormous influence on patch updates).

3. To my great shock, it seems that the changes causing the most contoversy relate to addressing the awful Consulate bug, arguably the most urgent item of the update. Please read the comments on related changes, in the OP, and understand that the scope of the changes, to Japanese, is a tiny buff to non-Isolation land units' attack (+0.38 Yumi Archer ranged attack, for example), and a significant nerf to Japanese Isolation units' attack (-0.72 & -14 Konsha Yamabushi hand attack & hitpoints, respectively, for example)—as well as a significant nerf to Yabusame ranged attack. With that said, I will continue to keep a close eye on results, and adapt accordingly.

Thank you all!
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

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Post by deleted_user0 »

You strongly recommend people to read your notes bu nobody understands your texts and you don't seem to bother to explain them either?
Referring to this page of the thread.

That's a starting point!
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by iNcog »

somppukunkku wrote:
– "Japanese Isolation" attack bonus reverted to +7% (from 5.5%); units no longer receive +10% attack & hitpoints; description updated
As clearly stated, the sole reason for this originally miniscule buff was the circumvention of a big bad bug. It has since been discovered that the change did not manage to achieve this intended objective, hence it being tweaked. It's caused no significant balance issues, until this tweak to (successfully, Eaglemut & Garja willing) resolve the issue—which is why I am being so bold as to implement limited rebalancing of certain Consulate features, ahead of EP9, particularly since Japanese has been on a consistent upwards trend – both in player-perceived performance and in usage. The shrewd PR-stunt would have been to leave this awful bug in the game until EP9, but that's just too detrimental to the game and thus too irresponsible for me to bear. This compensatory, general nerf to Japanese Isolation seems the way to go, lest late-game scaling improve, on top of which individual cost increases have a tendency to do either nothing or too much in the early-game, specifically, which were risky and unpredictable.
Can somebody help a non-native speaker to explain why did japan get buffed again? What is this text saying? Why does it say "revert"?
It's a bug fix
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC Patch 8.2.0.0 released

Post by RefluxSemantic »

It's fixing a 11 year old bug by making a balance change... It's not even close to urgent, and the fact that zoi thinks it actually is urgent is very concerning.

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