RE: Neuron and ESOC

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Canada Mitoe
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by Mitoe »

Hey Everyone,

We wanted to respond to some issues that have come up with one of our main admins, Neuron. After much deliberation, we have recently come to a decision as a group to remove Neuron from the Admin team in order to protect the site and also to preserve the main mission of the site. This was not a decision we took lightly, and it's not as if we don't appreciate all the work he's done for us: if there's someone that went above and beyond in terms of time and effort it's Neuron. It's thanks to him that many of our more advanced features on the site became a reality.

However, while we appreciate all he's done for us, for the sake of the team, our community, and its future, we cannot continue working with him.

Today, after recovering from the security issues we faced the other day, everyone on the ESOC team decided it would be best to leave the admin accounts with H2O. Due to comments made in the past and several threats made to leave the group, the team did not feel comfortable with Neuron continuing to have access to the admin account to the forums. Neuron changed passwords to both the admin account for our site, our YouTube channel, and our domain, eso-community.net, and refused to share these accounts facing a unanimous vote within the admin group. The group proposed several ideas such as leaving it with someone else but no ideas were really acceptable to him. The language Neuron used also made the team feel threatened and defeated as they felt the site was under control of someone who wasn??t looking to work with the team. The decision was made with 100% agreement to contact support and get control of the admin account. The decision was also made to limit Neuron??s access to the admin functions, after expecting a destructive response.

Our team has had a history of other conflicts with Neuron, which I won't detail here.

Finally, we wanted to leave an open message to Neuron. We want to get you all of the work that you have put into the site and developed. Despite the differences we do not think that all your work should be withheld. Please reach out to any of us on Skype so we can get you the code. We are leaving this message because you have left all the groups and removed all of us from Skype so we wanted to make sure we got this message to you.



For those who want to want to understand more about ESOC, our team, and our mission, I've also written a summary of our history over the past year.

ESO-Community was originally created to host the AoE3 Spring Championships, which took place earlier this year. It was never intended to become what it is today: AoE3 was on its last legs, the community slowly trickling away. Even I was having thoughts about quitting the game. Amhaye (or Stanley_Winston, as he renamed himself later), however, wanted to host one last tournament in an attempt to revive the game. H2O, having heard about the tournament, asked if he could get involved, and contributed greatly to creating the set of rules and tournament infrastructure we currently have today. As the site continued to generate more and more activity it occurred to us that this could become something bigger than a single event, and this is how ESOC was born.

After a week or so of hard work revamping the site, GoodSpeed announced the birth of our new community website: [a href="https://eso-community.forums.net/thread/269/eso-community-revamped"]https://eso-community.forums.net/thread/269/eso-community-revamped[/a], built and coded by GoodSpeed himself, Incog, WickedCossack, Edeholland, and later, Neuron. And we all know the story from here, the Spring Championships were a massive success, full of excitement and really pulled the community together here on ESOC.

As the Spring Championships was drawing to a close H2O took responsibility for creating a plan to keep ESOC growing and move from growth to a sustainable site that could last. He created a thread in the admin forum to collect everyone's feedback. Then compiled all the lessons learned into a powerpoint presentation that laid out the future plans for more tournaments and the sites goals. We are opening up that thread for everyone to view: [a href="http://eso-community.net/thread/481/asc-lessons-learned-moving-forward"]http://eso-community.net/thread/481/asc-lessons-learned-moving-forward[/a]. We are proud to say that the changes we made to tournament rules and the site were discussed as a group both in this thread and at length in our skype chat.

The result of this discussion was the plan that H2O produced. Rather than releasing the whole plan we wanted to call out two big goals that have been driving ESOC. The first and most important goal is that ESOC is a fun place to come to talk about age of empires and play the game. The second goal is to hold regular events with funding from the community.

[div style="text-align:center'"][a href="http://postimg.org/image/tid2zony3/"][img]http://s1.postimg.org/tid2zony3/IMG_19082015_003256.jpg[/img][/a]
[a href="http://postimg.org/image/h16fcissb/"][img style="max-width:100%'" src="http://s1.postimg.org/h16fcissb/IMG_19082015_003313.jpg"][/a]
[a href="http://postimg.org/image/hrz5iav5n/"][img style="max-width:100%'" src="http://s1.postimg.org/hrz5iav5n/IMG_19082015_003334.jpg"][/a]
[/div]
Up until this point, the site and its goals were mostly piloted by myself, H2O, and Stanley_Winston, with much input and discussion from the rest of the team as well. We wanted to refocus the way we were running the site, and try to ensure that every member of the team had equal say. At this point we were a growing team, Edeholland was increasing his role on the team, Musket was brought in to help with news posts, and we were considering getting more help. We were trying to get ESOCTV up and running as well. With all this growth we wanted to keep the group focused and wrote up what each person was currently doing for the site.

I've copied the entire Roles and Responsibilities thread, written by H2O and myself, from our admin forum for anyone interested in seeing it:

[spoiler]{Spoiler}{Spoiler}[quote author="@h2o" source="timestamp="1436715640""]Hey Everyone

We are growing quickly, I wanted to thank everyone for working so well together and accomplishing so much. We really have something to be proud of here.
Part of the growth is more streams of activity. To keep up with that we need to divide and conquer. In the spirit of that, I worked out some roles and responsibilities below.
Let this list help us focus and continue to make ESOC great. The distinction between owner and team should not be used as a power play or for ego. Ultimately we are all working together as one team here.


Definitions:

Owner: Primary person responsible for the outcome of the Workstream. Communicates and evaluates the plan with the team, and has the final say if there are disagreements. Is always aware of how their part of ESOC is going.

Team: Equal to the owner in terms of say day to day. They bring ideas and discussions about the Workstream. Help work on the stream or act as a backup for the owner of needed.


[font size="5"]ESOC Team
[/font]

Forum Titles
Tournament Admin: H2O,Mitoe

Tournament Staff: MusketJr
Casters: Interjection, ZutaZuta, Veni

Map Designer: Garja
Site Designer: Neuron

Moderator: incog
Betting Bookie: Goodspeed

ESOC Roadmap
Owner: H2O
Team: Mitoe, Neuron, Goodspeed


[font size="5"]ESOC Web Projects
[/font]

Feature Projects (currently top elo, betting integration)
Owner: Neuron
Team: Goodspeed, H2O

Migration project
Owner: H2O
Team: Neuron

Monetization project
Owner: H2O
Team: Neuron

Donation management
Owner: Mitoe
Team: H2O, Neuron

Site admin tasks (permissions, board structure, traffic analysis, sidebar edits etc)
Owner: Goodspeed
Team: Neuron, Mitoe, H2O

Global moderation
Owner: Incog
Team: Goodspeed, H2O, Edeholland

Marketing / Microsoft Contact
Owner: H2O

[font size="5"]Event Workstreams[/font]
Gameplay admins
Owner:H2O, Mitoe

General staff
Edeholland

Scheduling
Owner: Mitoe
Team: H2O

Casting coverage
Owner: H2O
Team: Interjection, Veni, zutazuta

Results updating
Owner:WickedCossack
Team: Mitoe, MusketJr

Map design
Owner: Garja

Betting event
Owner: Goodspeed

[font size="5"]Content creation work streams
[/font]
Twitch stream and YouTube channel
Owner: edeholland
Team: Neuron

News coverage
Owner: Goodspeed
Team: Musketjr

[font size="5"]Publicly listed contacts:
[/font]

General site related questions
Goodspeed
H2O
Neuron
Edeholland

Technical issues
Neuron

Moderation
Goodspeed
Incog

Tournament related questions
Mitoe
H2O

ESOCTV questions
edeholland[/quote][/spoiler]
I would like to mention that Stanley_Winston left the team for personal reasons, having decided to prioritize other things over ESOC and AoE3, not because of disagreements among the administration.

I would also like to point out, again, that this site and the team working behind the scenes is made up entirely of people volunteering their spare time, money, and effort to this community, and we're not doing this for any sort of personal gain other than just having fun playing a game we all love with our friends. Our mission will always be to make ESO-Community a fun place to play, watch, and discuss Age of Empires, and that will never change.
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

So who hacked the forums?
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by oxaloacetate »

Clear and concise. Thank you, Mitoe. Much needed at this point.
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by musketjr »

gotta say thanks to neuron for all the efforts he made helping out
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by 91 »

Hi,

This was sad to read, and I don't know what to think or say. but it makes me feel safe (as an ESOC user) and I trust you guys because of one important reason: you are multiple people making decisions together.

I hope you are able to keep it this way so that multiple people make important decisions together about ESOC.

Also I want to thank all of you (including Neuron) for all the time and effort you put into this huge project. It's a great site and tons of people hang here constantly, having fun. I hope we get to keep this site alive for a long time!! :)


Also, I don't want to judge or anything since I'm an outsider and don't know the relations between all the admins etc. I'm also not stating anything here. But if it's the case that someone acts really strange and rude, and do very harsh things like you described, one reason could be personal problems in life, family, friends or anything. It would be nice if we don't judge anyone too quickly but instead making sure Neuron is also okay first.
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by gibson »

So essentially what I'm understanding is that neuron threatened to leave with his work so he was kicked off of the team before he could?
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by CuCkO0 »

If there's one thing that AOE3 players can produce well and on a massive scale, it's drama.
KINGofOsmane wrote:If Elo is down what are we even fighting for
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by musketjr »

cucko0 wrote:If there''s one thing that humans can produce well and on a massive scale, it''s drama.
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by iNcog »

[quote author="@neuron" source="/post/40975/thread" timestamp="1439986702"]
after recovering from the security issues we faced the other day, everyone on the ESOC team decided it would be best to leave the admin accounts with H2O.
How is the site owner account safer with H2O than with me? Where are the arguments? How can you argue the root account is safer with the guy who already has most of the power on this site? Normally, if you want the team to be more balanced you don't concentrate the power in one hand.

I'm very disappointed at you Mitoe for siding with them. Now you are writing this piece to make me look like some irresponsible person, which I am not. I've had more responsibilities in my life than your boss at McDonalds has.

Neuron changed passwords to both the admin account for our site, our YouTube channel, and our domain, eso-community.net, and threatened to take the site and all of his work with him when we tried to work through the access issues
I did not change the account password for our domain, Ward did. You see, you are making accusations without any proof, Mitoe. When I "threatened" to take my work it was because H2O clearly was going to take this site and move it to a place where he would control everything. In fact this is what is happening right now, and I can't believe that you have no backbone and just follow H2O blindly. You should have provided a context for your accusations. The context was, those "threats" I made were strictly about how I will not allow this community project to be owned by someone personally and to use it to fulfill his narcisstic needs. Because this is what is happening right now.

Remember how many times he pushed players to play a match during the weekend? Why do you think this happened? Because H2O wants all the exposure to himself on streams, he wants to stream all the great games so everyone can admire the "king". Such a sickening display of narcissism has rarely been seen. Seriously and you don't see a problem with feeding this narcissism. When I was arguing to have more variety of casters (Samwise, Interjection, etc) H2O was like "No, I will cast". He kept pushing everyone to make them schedule at the time he would be available to capture all the stream attention to himself.

Was I not right in deciding I cannot let all the work I invested in this community be used by this site if the site stops belonging to the community? This is what I had been fighting for, I wasn't fighting for my personal exposure on streams or anything else (like H2O). In fact, most of the time I was working in the background coordinating events which had no planning or coordination whatsoever. Because many times both you and H2O did not fulfill your obligations as tournament staff, when we needed admin decisions, but neither would you nominate another tourney admin. This is an ongoing thing, even after I proposed to add an extra tourney admin in Europe, of course the mighty H2O ignored the request because why would he share the power, right? Shouldn't all major things be completely controlled by him? Donations, streams, the site, tourney, etc, etc, etc. The guy is basically power-starved, he can't help it, he needs to control more. And you are feeding him.

The decision was also made to limit Neuron??s access to the admin functions, after expecting a destructive response.
Destructive response? Seriousy what are you basing this on? How could I destroy what I've built with hard work. No offense, but besides the tourney scheduling and the tourney threads you haven't been doing much on the site. And you're most of the time afk, exactly when we need admin decisions on many issues.

Mitoe, why did Ward leave the site owner account to me, do you even know? You're too busy being an H2O fanboy it seems rather than asking yourself whether this guy controlling everything now on ESOC is a good thing. Do you really think that one guy controlling everyhting is a good thing? Because de facto this is what's happening here... The community site started by Ward and you no longer belongs to the community, it's a project totally owned and used to his own aggrandisement by H2O.

The reason why I always had my own opinions in the board was precisely this, most of you just act like H2O's minions simply bowing to your master and letting him decide whatever he wants. If H2O says something you all agree and clap-clap, if I said anything or proposed a new idea you all dismiss it and say I'm not working with the team.

If the team has become this communist clique with an egomaniac at its helm, no one in their right mind would want to continue to work on such a project. I can't remember how many times I've come up with new ideas on how to improve the site and have new features and every time the idea has been rejected or dismissed by "the team". But isn't this ridiculous? Every cool feature you see on the site was developed by me after you all dismissed it or rejected it as a bad idea. How could you work as a team with me when I developed everything you see here? It must have been tough working with me, MItoe, when you are 95% of time AFK and only contribute to the site when you make scheduling threads. How would you even know when most of the time you're not even available.

The site has actually stagnated ever since I left the web team. Nothing new has been developed exactly because it's impossible to work with this team made of mostly people who are either incompetent, deceptive, or unavailable. Imagine me developing a cool front page app where we could have all the important info about stream scheduling, latest videos and next big events shown in one single screen, just like a web app for mobiles. And then Goodspeed and Incog rejecting it saying it sucks or we don't need such a thing, when they both lack web development experience and don't have much idea about UI/UX development either. And then I ask @91 who works as a web developer and he says it's a cool concept and it's worth adding to the site. That was the atmosphere in the admin board, I was fighting to get accepted every feature I developed, sometimes for months, because they all rejected it, simply because they have no idea how a site should be developed. The site could have looked way better than now, if I could put into practice all the ideas I had. All this while these guys have been free riders on the site, they didn't do anything to develop it. GS was just writing a few paragraphs of news every week or so, Mitoe making some scheduling threads, Incog not sure what exactly he is doing, Edeholland had nothing to do and was complaining about this until H2O gave him the Twitch channel to adminstrate, but it was actually me who came up with the idea for the channel and built everything on it.

So, this is the reason you haven't seen anything new on the site.

Did I mention how much time I put into getting an actual professional artist to make the logo and the banners for us? It took more than month to get that guy to finally make something that wasn't amateurish. Guess what, the "team" wanted to go with a modder who thinks he knows everything if he can mod the game (he thinks he's graphic designer, music composer, etc etc). And they rejected everything I proposed until I got the logo and the banners from this artist. Then they changed their minds, because they saw the difference in quality was huge between the artist's work and the modder guy's attempt at making a banner. This happened every time I tried to bring something new of quality on the site. The entire team rejected and dismissed everything I proposed, until they caved in because they realised they could take profit from the work of this idiot (myself).

I have a lot more to say, once I remember everything. The reason why this admin board is such a mixed gathering is because there was no particular plan, no deliberation behind who would be entitled to be part of it. It was just buddies making buddies admins. I was probably the exception because when I asked to join it was to help them develop the site. Then Goodspeed refused my request to become an admin, when I told him working on the site is the job of an admin. Nooo, Goodspeed wants this position because he wants to be the community primadonna, just like H2O, not for the work involved. The guy hasn't been doing any work on the site forever. You don't need to be a site admin if all you're doing is write a bunch of news posts and have a betting thing. That's not site management, there's no need for you to be a site admin just for that. And this applies to other admins as well. Some should only be tourney admins, not site admins, because they aren't doing any site work, which is the proper job of a site admin. But hey, they want the power, the exposure, the status, just because of that. Nothing else.

You can ask me anything about this issue, I have no problem explaining.[/quote]

Actually the one and only thing we want is a community site for Age of Empires 3, as well as community events. That's the only thing we're working towards.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by princeofkabul »

neuron for president.
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by deleted_user0 »

First of all, I have no fact-information what happened inside our great admin team.
But to be honest, I have always categorized h2o as narcissist and this post of Neuron strengthens my feelings. There's no other explanations to these massive rages after losing a single game or withdrawing from the tournament after losing a couple games to diarouga. He MUST be #1 at everything.
Soooo, now we are living in a H2o dictatorship? :surprised:
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by iNcog »

No, we aren't.

We have decided it was best to link the root admin account to ryan's email, which is linked to his cellphone. It's for security.

Kind of unfair to lay it all on _H20, who has literally been putting money on the table each month so that ESOC is ad-free and on a better platform than proboards. Especially since this was a group decision which every staff member agreed to.

I'd have hoped that people have the brainpower to see past neuron's last destructive attempt to undermine other staff members. Please don't take that bait. At very least, extend your beef to everyone and not just ryan.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by edeholland »

neuron wrote:This is an ongoing thing, even after I proposed to add an extra tourney admin in Europe, of course the mighty H2O ignored the request because why would he share the power, right? Shouldn''t all major things be completely controlled by him? Donations, streams, the site, tourney, etc, etc, etc. The guy is basically power-starved, he can''t help it, he needs to control more. And you are feeding him.
Nah, tournament decisions are made by the tournament team, I don''t know why people think it''s completely controlled by him. Goodspeed spend a lot of time discussing things about the site and I am charge of the Twitch channel. I don''t see how Ryan is to blame for anything here.
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by _H2O »

I stopped reading when I got to the part where you said I wanted to cast all the games myself and that's why I encouraged weekend scheduling. That is so far from reality that it is kind of scary.

I have always said I won't cast unless it is needed. I would always let others cast before myself. I encouraged weekend streams because it consolidated te games and then we could have Microsoft advertise for us. That's why this tournament has 1/5th the live viewers. For the new casters I suggested we be cautious so not have quality problems and not have professional use of layovers etc. I said I am easily the worst and managing all that of the current casters which is why I was and still am a backup.

There's several more weird accusations in your post I'm sure but I don't want to scroll through it all. We all spent enough time scratching our heads in the admin chat those kinds of things.
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by zoom »

I'm not one to jump to conclusions (relative to the average person, anyway), and I'm not in a position to judge anyone here (due to lack of knowledge, more so than anything else), but for what it's worth, I will say that I really don't feel comfortable with Neuron being locked out under these circumstances. Also, I do think Neuron is... overestimating H2O's ambitions.
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by edeholland »

zoom wrote:these circumstances.
What exactly do you mean by this?
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by deleted_user0 »

zoom wrote:I''m not one to jump to conclusions (relative to the average person, anyway), and I''m not in a position to judge anyone here (due to lack of knowledge, more so than anything else), but for what it''s worth, I will say that I really don''t feel comfortable with Neuron being locked out under these circumstances.
Agreed.
We should organize an election and vote all admins 8-)
#bpdsforpresident
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by jsimons1289 »

I have no idea what's gone on behind the scenes, and having all this dirty laundry being aired isn't exactly the best (although aoe3 fans do like their drama!).

That aside, no matter what happens, or the reasons, Neuron you have clearly helped the community with some fantastic things and really helped with the site. So thank you.
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by princeofkabul »

somppukunkku wrote:
zoom wrote:Im not one to jump to conclusions (relative to the average person, anyway), and Im not in a position to judge anyone here (due to lack of knowledge, more so than anything else), but for what its worth, I will say that I really dont feel comfortable with Neuron being locked out under these circumstances.
Agreed.
We should organize an election and vote all admins 8-)
#bpdsforpresident
You got my vote!
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by WickedCossack »

neuron wrote:How is the site owner account safer with H2O than with me? Where are the arguments? How can you argue the root account is safer with the guy who already has most of the power on this site?


Since recent events someone has to have responsibility for the security. As for why Ryan ? He''s been around in the community a long time so has built up a significant amount of trust over those years. He''s also clearly very responsible. Whether it feeds his own ego is irrelevant, as the site will be secure. You get caught up in the heat of the moment very quickly Neuron and make some immature comments in the skype logs including having quit esoc before. Objectively the decision was only going to go one way.

Most of the other points you make seem fair. Yes, the team could respond quicker. Yes, you did like 95% of the cool features on the site and it would be significantly worse without you. Yes, Ryan might have some narcissistic tendencies (Who didn''t know this though ? :)) ) Yes, I think some of your ideas were not given enough encouragement or interest. Yes, some member titles might not reflect what they do.

At the end of the day though everyone helping with this site is doing it in their free time, it''s not going to be a perfect working environment. At the moment the site is fufilling most of its goals in being a friendly place to discuss AoE3 and host events.

I don''t really know what else to say, this escalated quickly. I don''t think the decision this fallout happened over actually affected anything other than security.
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by zoom »

edeholland wrote:
zoom wrote:these circumstances.
What exactly do you mean by this?
Non-amicable circumstances resulting in Neurons leaving. It doesnt precisely feel positive, does it?

What exactly do you otherwise think i mean by this?
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RE: Neuron and ESOC

Post by edeholland »

neuron wrote:I have been coordinating national structures with personel of over 200 people. And after I finished my job they were in a much better place than before, I left a well-developed structure, in which positions were gained purely based on competence, not nepotism.

neuron wrote:Such a sickening display of narcissism has rarely been seen.

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