$1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Great Britain WickedCossack
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by WickedCossack »

Damn, gotta feel sorry for Sam, Mitoe & Kaiser being placed in the same group as the GOAT, unlucky! All in on turk facerolling this.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by Kaiserklein »

Astaroth wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Goes to show how smart seeding by Elo is
Yeah, I honestly wish the seeding of the top16 (after the elo cut-off) would have been done by some other method tbh.

I think aoe2 uses a nice system here, which is all top players (or all qualified players) providing a list of their own seeding of the top16 and then making a list out of that.
Yeah, that was the obvious, better solution, which they decided not to adopt. It was already used in NWC too.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by kevinitalien »

Astaroth wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Goes to show how smart seeding by Elo is
Yeah, I honestly wish the seeding of the top16 (after the elo cut-off) would have been done by some other method tbh.

I think aoe2 uses a nice system here, which is all top players (or all qualified players) providing a list of their own seeding of the top16 and then making a list out of that.
I wouldn't have been qualified if we followed this method ahah xDD
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

kevinitalien wrote:
Astaroth wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Goes to show how smart seeding by Elo is
Yeah, I honestly wish the seeding of the top16 (after the elo cut-off) would have been done by some other method tbh.

I think aoe2 uses a nice system here, which is all top players (or all qualified players) providing a list of their own seeding of the top16 and then making a list out of that.
I wouldn't have been qualified if we followed this method ahah xDD
That would be top16 qualifies based on elo, and then group seeding is done using the top16 lists.
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Great Britain I_HaRRiiSoN_I
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

buts its the only comparable metric and objectively fair method available and the methods of qualifying and thus seeding have been made open.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by Kaiserklein »

It's one of the worst metrics you could use atm, and there are several better ways to seed, the most obvious one being peer seeding.
I think it's funny to pretend it's "fair", when literally winning or losing 1 more game can offset your rank by 1 slot, and change your group into another group of completely different difficulty. Like how is it fair that Sam, with seed #1, has the hardest group? Might as well have switched with Hazza #2, he'd be better off.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Ye, it changes too much to be reliable. Also, although it didn't happen, you can abuse this system, like Sam could have lost games on purpose at 23:55 to get an easier group.

It's important to use an objective method to pick the players, but then seeding should try to be fair.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by princeofcarthage »

Any number of players could abuse the aforementioned system and still end up in same groups. I will let you know what gets lost in the translation. It boils down to money and ranking. Take Group 1 /A for example. If placed in separate groups all 4 have the potential to end up in top 2 and win some prize money. The difference in this case only 2 win.

The argument that sam has tough groups despite being #1, while true on paper still gets offset by the fact that remaining players ended up with lower elo in hours/days leading upto competition which implies their form isn't that great, unless someone intentionally lost elo.

Every system is unreliable because it eventually ends up on each form on that particular day something which you can't predict. In your quest to find perfect seeding method, as you near to finals matches should become more and more closer and yet we have seen one-sided results in semis and finals. It simply implies that despite various methods of seeding over the years in your terms they are simply unreliable (and irrelevant as long as there is a fair measurable metric), and that this discussions everytime are useless.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

the fact that remaining players ended up with lower elo in hours/days leading upto competition which implies their form isn't that great, unless someone intentionally lost elo.
The issue is that you shouldn't seed people based on their form 2 hours before the seeding. For instance, kaiser was #1 and has been top 5 for months, and he lost a few games to #11, it's just a bad streak.
Every system is unreliable because it eventually ends up on each form on that particular day something which you can't predict.
No, top16 list is based on the average level people have.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by flontier »

Imagine how one peru revolt from a rdm noob can impact your tournament seeding !
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by chris1089 »

The one good thing from this seeding is that our British boys have the top two seeds.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by Hazza54321 »

also the fact that de has 1 million bugs some losses can be out of your control
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by chris1089 »

Is this problem a function of the ELO still being in early development? If it was much more mature, would this be fine as a seeding system, or would the same problems still apply?
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

i admit i have underestimated how volatile ELO is, PR was never this volatile
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by flontier »

chris1089 wrote:Is this problem a function of the ELO still being in early development? If it was much more mature, would this be fine as a seeding system, or would the same problems still apply?
I think it would be cool for a big number of participants such as a major tournament. You need to fix a limit and make everybody battle for it like a top200.
For a small number like top 16 or even top 32 i think an invitationnal format is more appropriate or you need to organize a pre-qualifier tourney by extending the number of participants, even if i did like a lot watching games last night of people trying to grind the top 16, elo is way too much volatile for a small amounts of participants.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by lemmings121 »

for real, who is this nameless player? its way more interesting for viewers if we actually know who is playing, this is not a smurf tournament, just update the bracket with his normal nametag.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by gibson »

It’ll be a lot better when we have data about elo so some sort of average can be incorporated rather than just taking the elo at some arbitrary time
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by robo »

Astaroth wrote:I think aoe2 uses a nice system here, which is all top players (or all qualified players) providing a list of their own seeding of the top16 and then making a list out of that.
That isn't consistently used. Most events are just seeded by highest achieved elo (rather than current elo) to promote always playing and aiming for higher rating rather than camping or smurfing once at a high spot.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by n0el »

robo wrote:
Astaroth wrote:I think aoe2 uses a nice system here, which is all top players (or all qualified players) providing a list of their own seeding of the top16 and then making a list out of that.
That isn't consistently used. Most events are just seeded by highest achieved elo (rather than current elo) to promote always playing and aiming for higher rating rather than camping or smurfing once at a high spot.
That is ideal, and hopefully when the ladder stats are available for usage we can implement that.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

chris1089 wrote:Is this problem a function of the ELO still being in early development? If it was much more mature, would this be fine as a seeding system, or would the same problems still apply?
It would be less impactful but still problematic. You can lose and 100-150 elo in one day, that's like 10-20 rank.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by harcha »

lemmings121 wrote:for real, who is this nameless player? its way more interesting for viewers if we actually know who is playing, this is not a smurf tournament, just update the bracket with his normal nametag.
lol
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by n0el »

kaister dates his cousin, don't worry its legal.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by WickedCossack »

I really do miss power rating. If the system had it's flaws fixed (high starting variance), which is easy to do, it's so superior and a darn sight cooler than elo.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by aaryngend »

WickedCossack wrote:I really do miss power rating. If the system had it's flaws fixed (high starting variance), which is easy to do, it's so superior and a darn sight cooler than elo.
Not only that, it also had low end variance once you played thousands of games. Your PR basically didn't change at all at some point, you needed like dozens of wins to move it up more than 0.2% :lol:

Anyway for seedings like in this challenge cup, I think there should be another system. People should get invited based on their past tourney presence (and results) and have an open qualifier for the rest of the players to fill up the spots.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by OvenBakedStrudel »

Any wagers for who plays the finals?

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