$1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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No Flag fightinfrenchman
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by fightinfrenchman »

OvenBakedStrudel wrote:Any wagers for who plays the finals?
$20 says Kynesie makes it to the finals
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Germany aligator92
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by aligator92 »

I take it that Mitoe is an Aizamk smurf account? Because I cannot see Aiz11 anywhere
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
the fact that remaining players ended up with lower elo in hours/days leading upto competition which implies their form isn't that great, unless someone intentionally lost elo.
The issue is that you shouldn't seed people based on their form 2 hours before the seeding. For instance, kaiser was #1 and has been top 5 for months, and he lost a few games to #11, it's just a bad streak.
Every system is unreliable because it eventually ends up on each form on that particular day something which you can't predict.
No, top16 list is based on the average level people have.
You don't have an average statistic so must use a specific date.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

I think the system that was used for the NWC was very good (despite rating the eventual winner far too low !): qualifiers based on elo and final seeding based on players own evaluation.

Anyway really looking forward to this tournament and this death group !
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by AndiAOE »

Lmao at "I date my cousin", interesting name
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by bobabu »

Is it not possible to add a qualifier? I mean still waiting for that H2O Samwise reunion after all this time. Kinda sad if it's not gonna happen just because of how the seeding worked. It seems H2O wanted to play this.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by fingolfin »

Yeah we want to see a Samwise vs H2O match like in the old FP days
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by harcha »

People want fair and equal seeding until it doesn't give the results they wanted.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

harcha wrote:People want fair and equal seeding until it doesn't give the results they wanted.
Yes of course and that's normal. People don't want potential winners of a tourney to be eliminated in the first round.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by princeofkabul »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
harcha wrote:People want fair and equal seeding until it doesn't give the results they wanted.
Yes of course and that's normal. People don't want potential winners of a tourney to be eliminated in the first round.
There will be potential winners dropping anyway, even if all those guys were in different groups, so what do you mean..?
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by princeofcarthage »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
harcha wrote:People want fair and equal seeding until it doesn't give the results they wanted.
Yes of course and that's normal. People don't want potential winners of a tourney to be eliminated in the first round.
All 16 qualified players are potential winners, and each round half of them will be eliminated (or according to rules). You realize your prejudice, that only certain 3-4 people can win tournament is actually insulting to rest 70%+ players who have worked hard to get qualified and will to try and win?
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I meant favourite, not just potential winners.
And not all the 16 players are realistically potential winners btw. I'd say 10-11 players have a shot at winning, with some who're more likely than others.

You could also say that Sam has worked hard to get #1 and that it's unfair to give him the hardest group btw.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by princeofcarthage »

Hardest group by what metric? He got lower end of the seeds. "I feel this is hard group" isn't a quantifiable metric, on the other hand elo is. Who is to say Kaiser's bad form/streak wouldn't continue in tournament and sam might end up washing up everyone else?
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Each seeding method has its merits, its downsides, and its different degrees of fairness. Would it be fair to Ezad to be seeded by his peers, completely neglecting any work he put into laddering? Hopefully, we can expect even the slightest degree of MS support soon with the development of a ladder so we can use max Elo and other metrics for our seeding purposes.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by bobabu »

I think the seeding is fair. And the seeding also served a purpose it got people to play the game in quick search So I don't disagree with the seeding at all. However; there should be a qualifier for people like H2O or Soldier.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by samwise12 »

I don’t know what you’re all talking about, this is the easiest group of my life D:
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Hardest group by what metric?
By the metric of every top player. Find a top player who would prefer group A over another group. GL.
I feel this is hard group" isn't a quantifiable metric
It is. Just ask the top16 players to rate the other players, and make the seeding based on that.
Who is to say Kaiser's bad form/streak wouldn't continue in tournament and sam might end up washing up everyone else?
It's impossible to predict. The issue is thatelo is just a coinflip unless people sit on their elo. kaiser could have decided to stop playing when he was #1, or lose 1 more game to get an easier group
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

bobabu wrote:I think the seeding is fair. And the seeding also served a purpose it got people to play the game in quick search So I don't disagree with the seeding at all. However; there should be a qualifier for people like H2O or Soldier.
It's actually the opposite. To exploit the seeding you should sit on your elo and stop playing after a good winning streak. kaiser didn't abuse that and decided to ladder while he was #1, and he got punished for that.
Iirc I was seeded #1 in the NWC qualifiers based on elo despite not playing for weeks because I abused the system. Now for a qualifier it doesn't really matter, but for a major tourney, seeding is important.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by somp »

If some people are willing to cherry-pick/sit on their elo, what embraces to give them honest player ratings? For example, player who believes he is gonna be seeded #7 should basically try to find as easy 8 as possible. Second, player-based ratings harm those who have improved a lot lately but not acknowledged by others.

Both systems have flaws. Death groups happen in any sport/game. Even without the possibility of cherry-picking/avoiding games. Definitely, the way isn't either letting the discriminating admins arbitrarily decide.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

You can't really cheat when ranking the players because tbh you simply cannot know how you ll be ranked (and how the other players will be ranked) + your ranking is just one out of 16 so you can't know how impactful your ranking is going to be.

Else there s the gsl system : players from the top4 pick a player in their group , then this player picks the next one and so on.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by Mitoe »

princeofcarthage wrote:Hardest group by what metric? He got lower end of the seeds. "I feel this is hard group" isn't a quantifiable metric, on the other hand elo is. Who is to say Kaiser's bad form/streak wouldn't continue in tournament and sam might end up washing up everyone else?
Well, ignoring elo, every group has 1 player in it that has won a tournament before (I think?), except for group A, which has 4 players who have all won tournaments before, 3 of whom have won multiple tournaments. All 4 have also been ranked #1 on the ladder at certain points.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by deleted_user »

Mitoe wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:Hardest group by what metric? He got lower end of the seeds. "I feel this is hard group" isn't a quantifiable metric, on the other hand elo is. Who is to say Kaiser's bad form/streak wouldn't continue in tournament and sam might end up washing up everyone else?
Well, ignoring elo, every group has 1 player in it that has won a tournament before (I think?), except for group A, which has 4 players who have all won tournaments before, 3 of whom have won multiple tournaments. All 4 have also been ranked #1 on the ladder at certain points.
wow! that's a lot of metrics!
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

Post by princeofcarthage »

Mitoe wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:Hardest group by what metric? He got lower end of the seeds. "I feel this is hard group" isn't a quantifiable metric, on the other hand elo is. Who is to say Kaiser's bad form/streak wouldn't continue in tournament and sam might end up washing up everyone else?
Well, ignoring elo, every group has 1 player in it that has won a tournament before (I think?), except for group A, which has 4 players who have all won tournaments before, 3 of whom have won multiple tournaments. All 4 have also been ranked #1 on the ladder at certain points.
Those are past results. They do not necessarily reflect current scenario. For ex. You have been hit and miss over the years, you have played like pr 50 and pr 15 within span of few days. I don't know your current form but can you definitively this may not happen again? You may end up playing lik PR 30. On paper I don't disagree it's the hardest group but it also has every potential to be the easiest one for any one of you.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by deleted_user »

this is why your predictions sux
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Re: $1000 ESOC Challenge Cup - Group Stage Reveal

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

princeofcarthage wrote:
Mitoe wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:Hardest group by what metric? He got lower end of the seeds. "I feel this is hard group" isn't a quantifiable metric, on the other hand elo is. Who is to say Kaiser's bad form/streak wouldn't continue in tournament and sam might end up washing up everyone else?
Well, ignoring elo, every group has 1 player in it that has won a tournament before (I think?), except for group A, which has 4 players who have all won tournaments before, 3 of whom have won multiple tournaments. All 4 have also been ranked #1 on the ladder at certain points.
Those are past results. They do not necessarily reflect current scenario. For ex. You have been hit and miss over the years, you have played like pr 50 and pr 15 within span of few days. I don't know your current form but can you definitively this may not happen again? You may end up playing lik PR 30. On paper I don't disagree it's the hardest group but it also has every potential to be the easiest one for any one of you.
It doesn't have the potential to be the easiest group, no. Mitoe is unconsistent ok, turk to some extent but kaiser and Sam are very consistent.

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