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Malta Aizamk
Howdah
Posts: 1008

15 Sep 2015, 21:34

alejandrote wrote:Rice Paddies could cost 600w, it''s not fair for euro civs to pay 800w for a plantation while Asian pay 400w for a versatile infrastucture. And Asian civs are less dependant of food so it won''t be a disaster.

Now I''m ready for pitchforks.
YOU FOOL! THAT WILL COMPLETELY CHANGE THE SETTLER MASSACRE META!
rapha smurfs are out to get me
No Flag alejandrote
Musketeer
Posts: 52

15 Sep 2015, 21:43

aizamk wrote:
alejandrote wrote:Rice Paddies could cost 600w, its not fair for euro civs to pay 800w for a plantation while Asian pay 400w for a versatile infrastucture. And Asian civs are less dependant of food so it wont be a disaster.

Now Im ready for pitchforks.
YOU FOOL! THAT WILL COMPLETELY CHANGE THE SETTLER MASSACRE META!
This FP involves sacrifices Aiz, even cows are exposed to changes
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Tuvalu gibson
Gendarme
Posts: 8856
Location: USA

15 Sep 2015, 21:49

jerom wrote:
gibson wrote:Just because Aiz has contorted something into working does NOT mean its viable. If that were the case every civ in every age would be vaible.
well true, but china colonial is actually strong. You just think its trash because people nowadays also think its trash and only do FF, which might indeed be better. But to say its trash just means you dont have much experience with it.

well it may not be the very worst thing, but playing colonial China is basically an automatic loss to any of the mid tier civs( soiux, brit, French, China, India, japan, Aztec)
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Tuvalu gibson
Gendarme
Posts: 8856
Location: USA

15 Sep 2015, 21:58

mmcnoel wrote:
gibson wrote:China age 2 is trash. Any civ that doesnt have a musk unit besides Aztec has a trashy age 2. You need anti cav but pikes arent good against anything but cav. And with China its even worse because the banner armies force you to make an inordinate amount of pikes, which are basically useless.
I disagree with this. China has powerful shipments and eco in age 2 but no one plays it because of the strength of china FF.

Pikes are not useless, your opponent needs to make cav because microd CKN are strong and easily can kite musket armies. Plus having a mass of pike helps you when you hit critical timing mass after 3 mili shipments to push and seige rax/stables. The only thing that makes China age 2 difficult to play is the slow age up. You have to micro perfectly against fast pressure from civs like otto, iro and russia but if you can hold the initial push you can win against otto and russia easily (iro just too OP).

the to issues I see with colonial China (and theyre really issues with China in general but arent as relevant in age 3) is first off like Russia they need to have all the resources to make a batch of army. So while I can have 3 military structes and que one unit in each and finish off by making 12 units, China just cant do that. To que two batches if army you literally need like 800 resources. Also, due to the fact that they have banner armies, you have to micro well or your screwed. If your opponent just focuses down all your pikes, you will just die to cav, because you dont have the option to make 5 pikes, only the two that come with the standard army or whatever its called. Its just extremely hard to get the right proportion of pike and bow due to the fact that the number you can create each batch is set.
No Flag lusas
Skirmisher
Posts: 103

15 Sep 2015, 21:58

They already said they wont nerf china '?ndia or the late Jap for now. Only fiX 5 civs
No Flag lusas
Skirmisher
Posts: 103

15 Sep 2015, 22:04

I think minimal changes is better and safer. Priority should be maps balance incluinding game breaking treasures.
No Flag onderhond
Crossbow
Posts: 7

15 Sep 2015, 22:12

gibson wrote:
mmcnoel wrote:I disagree with this. China has powerful shipments and eco in age 2 but no one plays it because of the strength of china FF.

Pikes are not useless, your opponent needs to make cav because microd CKN are strong and easily can kite musket armies. Plus having a mass of pike helps you when you hit critical timing mass after 3 mili shipments to push and seige rax/stables. The only thing that makes China age 2 difficult to play is the slow age up. You have to micro perfectly against fast pressure from civs like otto, iro and russia but if you can hold the initial push you can win against otto and russia easily (iro just too OP).
the to issues I see with colonial China (and theyre really issues with China in general but arent as relevant in age 3) is first off like Russia they need to have all the resources to make a batch of army. So while I can have 3 military structes and que one unit in each and finish off by making 12 units, China just cant do that. To que two batches if army you literally need like 800 resources. Also, due to the fact that they have banner armies, you have to micro well or your screwed. If your opponent just focuses down all your pikes, you will just die to cav, because you dont have the option to make 5 pikes, only the two that come with the standard army or whatever its called. Its just extremely hard to get the right proportion of pike and bow due to the fact that the number you can create each batch is set.
This is also exactly why the keshik needs a boost. If your opponent is focussing down your pikes and you have already used up you pike shipment, you dont want a batch 3 pikes and 3 cho ko nu, you need to be able to mass full anti-cav army, but the pike-keshik army is just unviable/too expensive...

an extra pike card in colonial would be nice too, but that wouldnt fix the problem of the keshik..
No Flag anonymousv2
Musketeer
Posts: 53

15 Sep 2015, 22:27

4 things, 1. I see what everyone is saying about Janissaries, it makes sense. nerf Abus instead. 2. Keshiks need a boost. They are really weak, and without them, China has no good ranged counter fav unit. Of course buffing Keshiks makes China even more powerful, so I think along with that, the Intervention shipment for China should be nerved to compensate. 3. I think that both Ports and Dutch need reduced vill cost, no question. I think in addition, to balance ports, their schooners card should be slightly nerfed, maybe -60% to maybe like 45 or 50 %. Also Dutch Bank cost needs to go down. 4. Spanish lancer and rod shipments need to be de-nerfed. In addition maybe strengthen rods or lower their cost.
Germany lordraphael
Jaeger
EWTNWC LAN SilverDonator 01
Posts: 2269

15 Sep 2015, 22:33

marco1698 wrote:This patch sucks though. Wall hp will be reduced significantly, Portuguese vills will cost less food? This is not what people care. You have to nerf the water, iro and ottomans. Oh, nerf also German and Indian
this is why we dont include the community . You just heard about 3 changes without any numbers and without any experience on how those changes turn out, nonetheless u think this enables u to say tat this patch sucks yet u only know about 3 potential changes that come.
Besides do you know what the community wants or doesnt want ? Why do you think u are smarter than us ? We try to balance the game with as few as possible changes. Just because GS didnt mention Otto and iro in his summary it doesnt mean we are not going to change them.
Also regarding german/ India or any other civ, if any civ turns out to be OP due to nerf / buffs for other civs we will obviously intervene.
Maybe u should all calm down a little bit and have a little faith in our work.

If u are unhappy with the changes AFTER the release we can still change things up.
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Russia yurashic
Howdah
Posts: 1140
ESO: Yurashic
Location: Russia

15 Sep 2015, 22:35

mmcnoel wrote:
gibson wrote:China age 2 is trash. Any civ that doesnt have a musk unit besides Aztec has a trashy age 2. You need anti cav but pikes arent good against anything but cav. And with China its even worse because the banner armies force you to make an inordinate amount of pikes, which are basically useless.
I disagree with this. China has powerful shipments and eco in age 2 but no one plays it because of the strength of china FF.

Pikes are not useless, your opponent needs to make cav because microd CKN are strong and easily can kite musket armies. Plus having a mass of pike helps you when you hit critical timing mass after 3 mili shipments to push and seige rax/stables. The only thing that makes China age 2 difficult to play is the slow age up. You have to micro perfectly against fast pressure from civs like otto, iro and russia but if you can hold the initial push you can win against otto and russia easily (iro just too OP).



Chinese are horrible in age 2. Like mentioned above, all civs without muskets are useless in age 2 except for Aztec, but even they despite having crazy cost efficient units struggle against musk cav in the long term.

Because of the banner army system you cant remass pikes if you lose them. Thats why age 3 China loses to pure hussar. In fortress it is not an issue because you can make full cav batches, have 3 strong anticav shipments (changdao, intervention, manchu) and redcoats for export.

Chinese do not have good cavalry in age 2. Steppe riders just die instantly and you can never get a good mass of them out simply because you have to train 2 steppe with 3 chu ko nus (1 hussar + 3 crossbowmen). Your only cavalry options are the 7 steppe shipment which is ok, Russian consulate cossacks and the rattan shield shipment.

Against Iroquois and Ottoman janissary rush you have to play age 2 because you cant age, you mine 160 gold for mm or to ff if they age, ship army -> army -> army -> 300 e for 8 coss -> 700 g -> rattan shields.
No Flag lusas
Skirmisher
Posts: 103

15 Sep 2015, 23:50

Chinese is one of the most sucess civs in the comunity' with a 57 winning comparing with a 38 port and 40 dutch or 47 french. Only ?ndia or irq are Higher
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 7563
ESO: Garja

16 Sep 2015, 00:59

It is not true that civs without musks can't play colonial. If China were able to prolong the game to late colonial it would probably beat half of musk civs because of its cost effective units.
Other civs (Germans or Dutch for example) can play colonial for a while while trying to age up.
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No Flag thebritish
Jaeger
Posts: 3787

16 Sep 2015, 01:04

garja wrote:It is not true that civs without musks can''t play colonial. If China were able to prolong the game to late colonial it would probably beat half of musk civs because of its cost effective units.
Other civs (Germans or Dutch for example) can play colonial for a while while trying to age up.
true.. 8-)
krichk wrote: For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge thebritish
No Flag SwissPro
Crossbow
Posts: 26

16 Sep 2015, 01:13

Yes!! No more cheating Great! Dirty Moesbar!
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
Posts: 8616
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

16 Sep 2015, 01:33

alejandrote wrote:Rice Paddies could cost 600w, it''s not fair for euro civs to pay 800w for a plantation while Asian pay 400w for a versatile infrastucture. And Asian civs are less dependant of food so it won''t be a disaster.

Now I''m ready for pitchforks.
I think decreasing Plantation cost (and bounties accordingly) to 600 would be preferable.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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United States of America _H2O
Retired Contributor
Donator 06
Posts: 3262

16 Sep 2015, 01:42

Just want to say the focus of the first run of this patch has been to bring a better experience on ESO more than to go crazy changing the gameplay we all love.

The change of the map pool, anti cheating, and automatic updates gives a lot of life to us when right now we are facing a lot of cheating problems and a stale QS environment.

The balance changes are a favorite to read, but don't expect the game to be changed too drastically to be honest.

Remember auto update means easy to make more changes in the future.

I also would remind you that sometimes different is good. China's age 2 is not viable period. Not many Civs are in this boat and it makes them play out way differently than other Civs. You can do some surprises with age 2 but ultimately you need to have age 3 in the agenda. If that changes the why is China any different than german Xbow pike ulhan?

That was the big mistake of the first fan patch. It went for balance over diversity and it was boring for 90% of players.
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Tuvalu gibson
Gendarme
Posts: 8856
Location: USA

16 Sep 2015, 03:00

garja wrote:It is not true that civs without musks can''t play colonial. If China were able to prolong the game to late colonial it would probably beat half of musk civs because of its cost effective units.
Other civs (Germans or Dutch for example) can play colonial for a while while trying to age up.

when I said can''t play colonial I meant can''t stay their and win... I wouldn''t consider making a few skirm, hus, or uhlan as staying colonial.....
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China fei123456
Jaeger
Posts: 2498
ESO: fei123456
Location: Alderaan

16 Sep 2015, 05:04

h2o wrote:Just want to say the focus of the first run of this patch has been to bring a better experience on ESO more than to go crazy changing the gameplay we all love.

The change of the map pool, anti cheating, and automatic updates gives a lot of life to us when right now we are facing a lot of cheating problems and a stale QS environment.

The balance changes are a favorite to read, but don''t expect the game to be changed too drastically to be honest.

Remember auto update means easy to make more changes in the future.

I also would remind you that sometimes different is good. China''s age 2 is not viable period. Not many Civs are in this boat and it makes them play out way differently than other Civs. You can do some surprises with age 2 but ultimately you need to have age 3 in the agenda. If that changes the why is China any different than german Xbow pike ulhan?

That was the big mistake of the first fan patch. It went for balance over diversity and it was boring for 90% of players.

the standard army should contain 3 stepple rider 2 ckn. the forbidden army should train slower. and that''s ok.
sepoy SHOULD be nerfed to 180hp. if we nerf otto and iro but dont change anything about india, it will become a lame civ ofc.
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China fei123456
Jaeger
Posts: 2498
ESO: fei123456
Location: Alderaan

16 Sep 2015, 05:11

yurashic wrote:
mmcnoel wrote:I disagree with this. China has powerful shipments and eco in age 2 but no one plays it because of the strength of china FF.

Pikes are not useless, your opponent needs to make cav because microd CKN are strong and easily can kite musket armies. Plus having a mass of pike helps you when you hit critical timing mass after 3 mili shipments to push and seige rax/stables. The only thing that makes China age 2 difficult to play is the slow age up. You have to micro perfectly against fast pressure from civs like otto, iro and russia but if you can hold the initial push you can win against otto and russia easily (iro just too OP).

Chinese are horrible in age 2. Like mentioned above, all civs without muskets are useless in age 2 except for Aztec, but even they despite having crazy cost efficient units struggle against musk cav in the long term.

Because of the banner army system you cant remass pikes if you lose them. Thats why age 3 China loses to pure hussar. In fortress it is not an issue because you can make full cav batches, have 3 strong anticav shipments (changdao, intervention, manchu) and redcoats for export.

Chinese do not have good cavalry in age 2. Steppe riders just die instantly and you can never get a good mass of them out simply because you have to train 2 steppe with 3 chu ko nus (1 hussar + 3 crossbowmen). Your only cavalry options are the 7 steppe shipment which is ok, Russian consulate cossacks and the rattan shield shipment.

Against Iroquois and Ottoman janissary rush you have to play age 2 because you cant age, you mine 160 gold for mm or to ff if they age, ship army -> army -> army -> 300 e for 8 coss -> 700 g -> rattan shields.

age 2 china dont have musk, but they have keshik. a keshik with upgrade has 8??4 to cav 1.5 rof, which means 3 musks. the main problem is they dont have good melee cav. steppe rider has poor hp attack and they can only have 2 each batch. if its 3 steppe rider 2 ckn a batch things will be different.
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France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 9606
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

16 Sep 2015, 05:24

rikikipu wrote:
marco1698 wrote:This patch sucks though. Wall hp will be reduced significantly, Portuguese vills will cost less food? This is not what people care. You have to nerf the water, iro and ottomans. Oh, nerf also German and Indian
Nerf german... LOL. Next step, nerf dutch and spain plz
German are too op, thats a fact. It wont be nerfed in a 1st patch because well only touch 5 civs but in next patches itll be nerfed for sure.
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 7563
ESO: Garja

16 Sep 2015, 08:01

gibson wrote:
garja wrote:It is not true that civs without musks cant play colonial. If China were able to prolong the game to late colonial it would probably beat half of musk civs because of its cost effective units.
Other civs (Germans or Dutch for example) can play colonial for a while while trying to age up.
when I said cant play colonial I meant cant stay their and win... I wouldnt consider making a few skirm, hus, or uhlan as staying colonial.....

I mean real colonial. Germans can play colonial just fine.
No Flag mongobillione
Dragoon
Donator 01
Posts: 467

16 Sep 2015, 09:10

lordraphael wrote:
marco1698 wrote:This patch sucks though. Wall hp will be reduced significantly, Portuguese vills will cost less food? This is not what people care. You have to nerf the water, iro and ottomans. Oh, nerf also German and Indian
this is why we dont include the community . You just heard about 3 changes without any numbers and without any experience on how those changes turn out, nonetheless u think this enables u to say tat this patch sucks yet u only know about 3 potential changes that come.
Besides do you know what the community wants or doesnt want ? Why do you think u are smarter than us ? We try to balance the game with as few as possible changes. Just because GS didnt mention Otto and iro in his summary it doesnt mean we are not going to change them.
Also regarding german/ India or any other civ, if any civ turns out to be OP due to nerf / buffs for other civs we will obviously intervene.
Maybe u should all calm down a little bit and have a little faith in our work.

If u are unhappy with the changes AFTER the release we can still change things up.

Hate hate hate.... +1 good post douchebag
No Flag alejandrote
Musketeer
Posts: 52

16 Sep 2015, 09:50

zoom wrote:
alejandrote wrote:Rice Paddies could cost 600w, its not fair for euro civs to pay 800w for a plantation while Asian pay 400w for a versatile infrastucture. And Asian civs are less dependant of food so it wont be a disaster.

Now Im ready for pitchforks.
I think decreasing Plantation cost (and bounties accordingly) to 600 would be preferable.
Its another option, but I think the best for this game is making the transition to farms-plantations-paddies quite expensive to preserve the fight for map control. Imagine if Germany can build a plantation for 600w. You can task 8sw+2v (starting 3sw + 2sw shipment+ 3sw shipment) which are 18 villagers gathering gold. Too cheap. Anyway I doubt they nerf Asian civs.
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
Posts: 8616
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

16 Sep 2015, 10:24

I doubt Chinese and Indians will be untouched if additional civilizations are changed in potential future patches.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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France Rikikipu
ESOC Maps Team
Posts: 1588
ESO: p-of
Location: In your base

16 Sep 2015, 10:46

diarouga wrote:
rikikipu wrote:Nerf german... LOL. Next step, nerf dutch and spain plz
German are too op, thats a fact. It wont be nerfed in a 1st patch because well only touch 5 civs but in next patches itll be nerfed for sure.


diarouga wrote:On fair maps ger, fre and dutch are as good as india.
Fre, ger are as good as china.
Fre, ger, brit, russia are as good as jap.

So Germany is as good as india, china
diarouga wrote:india and china are fine, not too op..

diarouga wrote:India and china are fine as they are, nerfing them would make them not strong enough.


diarouga wrote:india isnt op. China, sioux, az, ger are good but you can beat them.


I think you are missing some constancy in your ideas....

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