A Farewell to His Manclness, _H2O, Dictator of ESOC

Palestine Mimsy for President
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Post by Mimsy for President »

kaiserklein wrote:
diarouga wrote:We also tested 8 timings xD, were not dumb, with sr you cant have more than 35jans or 15jans/10 abus in your opponent towns.
Thats strong, hard to hold but managable, thats why otto is a good civ but not the best anymore.
I can have 15 jans 10 abus at 7 min so I doubt with silk at 8 you dont have more lol
If you send silk road, your 3rd shipment is delayed anyway. Maybe you should wait &' see as you advised us for the patch date release. :evilgrin:

Dont get me wrong, Im just kidding.
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Post by Garja »

Wall nerf is because walls are too strong in this game.
In other games either there are no walls (SC2) or walls are weaker (see the palisade in AOC). Wood walls are supposed to just buy time, slowing opponent units and making you aware of the attack.

Wall LOS is a nerf because it's simply stupid that a wall has any line of sight. Practically speaking it has been nerfed to prevent the wall segment abuse.
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Post by Hagi »

diarouga wrote:Imo that wasn''t the best nerf.
Strategically, building walls for los is interesting.
Indeed... on the same note, dead explorer should have a los = 0 to follow the idea.
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Post by Garja »

Please don't confuse interesting with cheesy.
Also explorers have very little LOS when they're dead so don't see the problem. Walls will have 1 LOS not zero.
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Post by momuuu »

garja wrote:Wall nerf is because walls are too strong in this game.
In other games either there are no walls (SC2) or walls are weaker (see the palisade in AOC). Wood walls are supposed to just buy time, slowing opponent units and making you aware of the attack.

Wall LOS is a nerf because it''s simply stupid that a wall has any line of sight. Practically speaking it has been nerfed to prevent the wall segment abuse.
I would doubt that walls were supposed to just buy time. Nor do I think this change makes them ''just buy time''. I think walls were supposed to be used to defend, and they do that a little to well, so the nerf is still useful but the idea behind the nerf seems a little bit off to me.
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Post by iNcog »

jerom wrote:
garja wrote:Wall nerf is because walls are too strong in this game.
In other games either there are no walls (SC2) or walls are weaker (see the palisade in AOC). Wood walls are supposed to just buy time, slowing opponent units and making you aware of the attack.

Wall LOS is a nerf because its simply stupid that a wall has any line of sight. Practically speaking it has been nerfed to prevent the wall segment abuse.
I would doubt that walls were supposed to just buy time. Nor do I think this change makes them just buy time. I think walls were supposed to be used to defend, and they do that a little to well, so the nerf is still useful but the idea behind the nerf seems a little bit off to me.


Youre both sort of saying the same thing really. When defending a push, time helps a LOT.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Post by Hagi »

"Walls are too strong"
If they were so strong, why don't the best players use them, specially when there is $1000 on the table for the tournament winner?
Walls are great when played well, but they are not OP.
It's difficult to play with them or against them.
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Post by musketeer925 »

adv wrote:"Walls are too strong"
If they were so strong, why don''t the best players use them, specially when there is $1000 on the table for the tournament winner?
Walls are great when played well, but they are not OP.
It''s difficult to play with them or against them.


Sometimes identifying what''s best by saying "the pros didn''t do it in the tournaments" isn''t the best indicator. It''s risky to try something you don''t have lots of practice doing when $1000 is on the table, so even if its good, it won''t be risked as frequently by players who don''t use it all the time.
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Post by Hagi »

musketeer925 wrote:
adv wrote:"Walls are too strong"
If they were so strong, why dont the best players use them, specially when there is $1000 on the table for the tournament winner?
Walls are great when played well, but they are not OP.
Its difficult to play with them or against them.
Sometimes identifying whats best by saying "the pros didnt do it in the tournaments" isnt the best indicator. Its risky to try something you dont have lots of practice doing when $1000 is on the table, so even if its good, it wont be risked as frequently by players who dont use it all the time.
Agree, but they could prepare a couple month in advance to win the tournament. They do that when they find a new BO that is superior, they prepare for tournament and they win.
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Post by Hagi »

adv wrote:
musketeer925 wrote:Sometimes identifying whats best by saying "the pros didnt do it in the tournaments" isnt the best indicator. Its risky to try something you dont have lots of practice doing when $1000 is on the table, so even if its good, it wont be risked as frequently by players who dont use it all the time.
Agree, but they could prepare a couple month in advance to win the tournament. They do that when they find a new BO that is superior, they prepare for tournament and they win.

Following my line of reasoning, here is an example :

Watching old recs of Japan, their meta was military oriented with tori gates, consulate isolation.
Then in around 2008 everybody realize how strong is the port consulate with shrine boom.
Everybody adapt their BO and change the way to play this civ.
And the changing is radical, the macro is much more complicated, you have to learn to defend your base, your shrines, etc...
But everybody switch to that because it was simply better.

Walls are the same since a decade now, only 3 players really use them at top levels, am I wrong?
Nobody changes their BO because they realize walls are op.
My average logic tells me, walls are not strong.
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Post by zoom »

If there is a general consensus among the best players on something, it's typically correct.
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Post by Garja »

adv wrote:"Walls are too strong"
If they were so strong, why don''t the best players use them, specially when there is $1000 on the table for the tournament winner?
Walls are great when played well, but they are not OP.
It''s difficult to play with them or against them.



Because using walls is lame. There have been many instances in the past and even recently where "best players" needed to win and dropped some walls.
Anyway the whole point of too strong is 3k hp for 5wood. 3k hp is a consulate, for reference. A barracks is 2k hp, again for reference.
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Post by briowl »

garja wrote:
adv wrote:"Walls are too strong"
If they were so strong, why dont the best players use them, specially when there is $1000 on the table for the tournament winner?
Walls are great when played well, but they are not OP.
Its difficult to play with them or against them.

Because using walls is lame. There have been many instances in the past and even recently where "best players" needed to win and dropped some walls.
Anyway the whole point of too strong is 3k hp for 5wood. 3k hp is a consulate, for reference. A barracks is 2k hp, again for reference.
I dont necessarily disagree with the wall nerf but ur logic is ropey. A wall is designed to protect. Those buildings do other stuff apart from have hitpoints LOL :D
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Post by momuuu »

incog wrote:
jerom wrote:I would doubt that walls were supposed to just buy time. Nor do I think this change makes them just buy time. I think walls were supposed to be used to defend, and they do that a little to well, so the nerf is still useful but the idea behind the nerf seems a little bit off to me.
Youre both sort of saying the same thing really. When defending a push, time helps a LOT.

But in reality what a wall does when defending is protect ranged units against cav so that they can snipe off units for free. The two civs abusing it (dutch, japan) kinda need it though, so its sorta fine with me I guess.
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Post by Jaeger »

diarouga wrote:We also tested 8 timings xD, we''re not dumb, with sr you can''t have more than 35jans or 15jans/10 abus in your opponent towns.
That''s strong, hard to hold but managable, that''s why otto is a good civ but not the best anymore.
How much can they have on RE patch witouth SR?
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

ovi12 wrote:
diarouga wrote:We also tested 8 timings xD, were not dumb, with sr you cant have more than 35jans or 15jans/10 abus in your opponent towns.
Thats strong, hard to hold but managable, thats why otto is a good civ but not the best anymore.
How much can they have on RE patch witouth SR?
More at 8, I dont remember the exact number.
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Post by iNcog »

briowl wrote:
garja wrote:Because using walls is lame. There have been many instances in the past and even recently where "best players" needed to win and dropped some walls.
Anyway the whole point of too strong is 3k hp for 5wood. 3k hp is a consulate, for reference. A barracks is 2k hp, again for reference.
I dont necessarily disagree with the wall nerf but ur logic is ropey. A wall is designed to protect. Those buildings do other stuff apart from have hitpoints LOL :D


There was an Indian mirror on Cascade Range during the tournament. That was a great game, but walls did so much for one of the players in that game.

Cant remember which match up it was (players). ):
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Post by samwise12 »

Could've been my game vs Goongoon in the semi finals, i think it was game 2.
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Post by Rikikipu »

Kynesie won't play on FP confirmed
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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

He will ')
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Post by Hagi »

rikikipu wrote:Kynesie won''t play on FP confirmed
With Port, during the first 5 minutes, less food gathering because vill cost 80.
So more vills on wood, and more layers of walls.

With Jap, not sure you can afford to waste time building 2 layers of walls though.
Interesting to see how that will affect his strat.
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Post by Wuangaga »

He didn't use walls in the last team games i saw him playing, so i guess he adapted his playstyle.
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Post by princeofkabul »

Nerfing walls was great, thanks for that. If 1500hp is too less for you guys then upgrade them IF you want to camp in ur base the whole game.
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Post by blackbob68 »

princeofkabul wrote:Nerfing walls was great, thanks for that. If 1500hp is too less for you guys then upgrade them IF you want to camp in ur base the whole game.
I agree with my TGR bro here :)
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Post by iNcog »

samwise12 wrote:Could''ve been my game vs Goongoon in the semi finals, i think it was game 2.


Yeah that was it. Ended up being mamelukes versus rajput.

Can''t find the vod. ):

Nonetheless, in that game, the walls effectively split the map in half, simply because it''s damn near impossible to go through a wall without taking too much damage against a good player.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.

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