ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

[deleted_user0]

@Goodspeed

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but i disagree that its trying to make everone happy, its been stated often, that that is also not its intention. It's not like 75% of the people play on esoc, and theres just a few dinosaurs complaining about how it used to be. most people dont play the patch, and you arent even willing to acknowledge that, then i guess you can live on in the fantasy.

This is true and by everyone I didn't mean all of ESO, I meant potential patch players which is to say PR25+ players who know about this website. We are not trying to make all of ESO happy, this would be futile. Realistically the vast majority of ESO players is unreachable to us. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm unwilling to acknowledge this.

fact is that even most of the patch team are divided over the product.

Also true, and that is exactly why you can't blame us for trying to find a compromise that suits both camps. As I said, players who are incapable of compromise are going to have trouble but we'd have that problem no matter what we did.

im not sure why you (jerom and rapha too) are getting so insulted about this (perhaps this is too strongly worded, but I think you get my point, its not about blaming). I'm not looking to dole out blame. I'm just giving my opinion on the matter, not to discredit your efforts, of which i have tried to support where i could agree with it, but simply to paint a total picture, and perhaps to create something better in the future. And if not, then atleast its clear to both parties that our ways part.

I personally would have preffered other tools to achieve balance, and if changes had to be made, i would have preferred a different method on achieving them (which i know might not all be practical since we have no official support and tools).

[Garja]

That's not true. Most of people would play on the patch if it was easier to arrange games. Literally the only reason why EP is not successful (regardless of balance changes or w/e) is the fact that it is not official and thus widespread.

[momuuu]

I dont mind your criticism but bonengs post is just a giant middle finger in our face with no other purpose but that. Besides afaik the patch is doing fine.

[momuuu]

Also the biggest reason ep was not being used as much was in my eyes that the balance changes didnt change enough to warrant trying to get patch games going in the first place. Right now bigger but succesful balance changes is great, now theres a reason to start the game as EP, because the balance changes do more than make ports viable.

[deleted_user0]

That's not true. Most of people would play on the patch if it was easier to arrange games. Literally the only reason why EP is not successful (regardless of balance changes or w/e) is the fact that it is not official and thus widespread.

well duh...

[gibson]

Boneng didnt compromise with anything, he just didnt support even minimal changes. Its ridiculous to give any weight to his statement, boneng wasnt going to support us anyway and is just giving us some shit for no reason.

lol he gave his opinion politely about why the patch hasn't been successful and about why jap players aren't playing it and what he thinks the goal of the patch should be and this is the third or so post that you're talking shit about him and making completely unbiased claims and accusations because you for some reason can't handle any criticism of the patch and think it's the new bible or smt....

[Goodspeed]

@umeu

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No worries, no one's insulted. I'm simply addressing your and other people's comments about the patch which I feel are ungrounded or at least not taking into account the fact that we've had to make compromises during the process. This because I think it's important for you all to understand that we are not deciding things arbitrarily or based on our personal view of the game, but rather are taking the community's opinion very seriously.

@Jerom

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Please give boneng a break, I see no hostility in his post whatsoever. He's entitled to his opinion like everyone else.

[deleted_user0]

@umeu

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No worries, no one's insulted. I'm simply addressing your and other people's comments about the patch which I feel are ungrounded or at least not taking into account the fact that we've had to make compromises during the process. This because I think it's important for you all to understand that we are not deciding things arbitrarily or based on our personal view of the game, but rather are taking the community's opinion very seriously.

@Jerom

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Please give boneng a break, I see no hostility in his post whatsoever. He's entitled to his opinion like everyone else.

well apparantly jerom is. and i already said insulted is perhaps a bit too strongly worded, but when you start to talk about blaming and stuff like that, imo were straying from the discussion were trying to have and start make this emotional

and i know that you take things seriously, i have access to the patch teams discussions. i just think its important to say these things, because personally, i was never a fan of the patch idea in the first place, but i supported it because it seemed neccesary at that time with all the cheaters, and i was willing to give it a shot. it had changes i didnt like, but they were few. now there are alot more changes i dont like or agree with, and im not really bothered to play it. also perhaps because im just playing more and more casually, and i cant be bothered to keep have to adjust to new changes. if thats something you know, you can consider how to deal with these sentiments, or if you dont want to, then we all know this and we both can stop putting effort in it.

[Garja]

That's not true. Most of people would play on the patch if it was easier to arrange games. Literally the only reason why EP is not successful (regardless of balance changes or w/e) is the fact that it is not official and thus widespread.

well duh...

What do you mean with that? That it is obvious? Doesn't seem too obvious to me, given the current discussion.

[momuuu]

"Now youve gone too far" isnt the most respectful statement to make but I guess it could just be poor wording or something. I do read it with a slight sense of hostility to be honest, but maybe thats just me misinterpreting things I guess.

[Goodspeed]

@umeu

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No worries, no one's insulted. I'm simply addressing your and other people's comments about the patch which I feel are ungrounded or at least not taking into account the fact that we've had to make compromises during the process. This because I think it's important for you all to understand that we are not deciding things arbitrarily or based on our personal view of the game, but rather are taking the community's opinion very seriously.

@Jerom

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Please give boneng a break, I see no hostility in his post whatsoever. He's entitled to his opinion like everyone else.

well apparantly jerom is. and i already said insulted is perhaps a bit too strongly worded, but when you start to talk about blaming and stuff like that, imo were straying from the discussion were trying to have and start make this emotional

I can't speak for everyone but that was never my intention.

[deleted_user0]

That's not true. Most of people would play on the patch if it was easier to arrange games. Literally the only reason why EP is not successful (regardless of balance changes or w/e) is the fact that it is not official and thus widespread.

well duh...

What do you mean with that? That it is obvious? Doesn't seem too obvious to me, given the current discussion.

its obvious. the same is true for the current patch. people play it because its the default option. new players go there etc, thats one of the biggest arguments against the patch, because its not the default version, its very easy to miss out on the influx of new players because simply they dont know about the patch. if this patch was official, we would not be having this discussion, so ofcourse your post is obvious...

[momuuu]

I mean his post doesnt have much objectivity. 'Frequent patch changes' when we just patched it for the first time since release. It was first minor changes but now it has suddenly gone to far? Changes are still pretty minimal, just ranging to more civs. The otto/iro changes here bring it closer to RE even.

But its just him trying to give constructive criticism yes. That we should aim to reach out to more players, very useful.

[Garja]

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That's not true. Most of people would play on the patch if it was easier to arrange games. Literally the only reason why EP is not successful (regardless of balance changes or w/e) is the fact that it is not official and thus widespread.

well duh...

What do you mean with that? That it is obvious? Doesn't seem too obvious to me, given the current discussion.

its obvious. the same is true for the current patch. people play it because its the default option. new players go there etc, thats one of the biggest arguments against the patch, because its not the default version, its very easy to miss out on the influx of new players because simply they dont know about the patch. if this patch was official, we would not be having this discussion, so ofcourse your post is obvious...

We are having this discussion because Boneng said changes are too many.
It's not obvious because people blame patch changes continuosly, while even the worst change choice would be superior to the RE patch.
The fact that EP is not default isn't even an argument. There is no choice between EP and RE. It's either EP or game is dead.

[deleted_user0]

Lol except its not true, you can still find games easier on the re patch than on EP, and its a much bigger variety of players than on the EP, which is a very small pool of similar minded people. Even you, one of the most fanatic patch players, have about 40 to 50% re games in your last 40 games.

And that even the worst EP change is superior to the RE patch is your own opinion, that apparantly not everyone agrees with. And you are so arrogant to completely disregard that other pov as irrelevant because they dont agree with your vision of how balance should be.

[momuuu]

I mean theres still this sudden consensus that fp1.2 changed too much and standardized everything while that notion seems to have been come to life only recently. Never heard anyone say things like that back then, although I wasnt super deep into the community. I only know that I, a noob, together with fellow noob N3O clan members, was very excited to read all the new changes that these players considered good. Never did I feel alienated or left out, it all seemed pretty fair.

I used to bother getting friends to play on EP1.0 too, but slowly I came to conclude that the difference was minimal (nobody played otto or iro, and the changes to dutch werent large enough for me personally to bother switching, sioux was arguably made less fun/worse) so I stopped asking people to play EP. Right now Im going to ask people to play EP with me whenever I play. No more france/germany all the fucking time, maybe even two new civs in otto and iro. Most civ seemingly playable, Im really looking forward to playing on it whenever I decide to play aoe atm.

[Garja]

Players on RE are bad, laggers, and they're lazy asses that would sell their mother for a couple of Elo points. They're similar minded as well. If I exclude those players basically I find more games on EP, even thought it means spending more time.
It's not just my opinion, it's a fact (which I guess is the same thing, hence your confusion) that the EP is better in every single aspect. Yes I'm arrogant, but I'm right, once again.

[momuuu]

Wait you were once right? Amazing.

[Goodspeed]

@umeu

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No worries, no one's insulted. I'm simply addressing your and other people's comments about the patch which I feel are ungrounded or at least not taking into account the fact that we've had to make compromises during the process. This because I think it's important for you all to understand that we are not deciding things arbitrarily or based on our personal view of the game, but rather are taking the community's opinion very seriously.

@Jerom

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Please give boneng a break, I see no hostility in his post whatsoever. He's entitled to his opinion like everyone else.

and i know that you take things seriously, i have access to the patch teams discussions. i just think its important to say these things, because personally, i was never a fan of the patch idea in the first place, but i supported it because it seemed neccesary at that time with all the cheaters, and i was willing to give it a shot. it had changes i didnt like, but they were few. now there are alot more changes i dont like or agree with, and im not really bothered to play it. also perhaps because im just playing more and more casually, and i cant be bothered to keep have to adjust to new changes. if thats something you know, you can consider how to deal with these sentiments, or if you dont want to, then we all know this and we both can stop putting effort in it.

I absolutely get the sentiment, but consider that our changes aren't all that big. They are, for the most part, balance changes specifically designed not to change the meta. There are exceptions this iteration, like the dragoon change, but as I said we have a lot of opinions to take into account and many of them want to go the other direction. Also know that I personally don't intend to make a habit out of exceptions, we've agreed early on in the process that we'll stick to what's necessary to balance the game and not go beyond that and it's something I still feel strongly about.

I'm curious, which changes specifically do you think are changing the meta (beyond balance) drastically? As far as I can see the impact on how the civs play is minimal.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, no reason to attack boneng, he just gives his opinion.
About the changes, most of the people like it, only 3 people think that we changed too many things and I'd say that H2O and boneng are quite biased due to their unique styles.

[deleted_user0]

im not saying they are neccesarily too big individually, but all together there are too many i dislike for me to have a posivite feeling about the patch.

i dont like whats done to iro, though the reverts are better than the last patch.
im not a fan of the changes to dutch banks. The old han change seems too much, though im not against it in principle, it seems just a matter of tweaking a little. the uhlan change, fre 100f, i feel like the spanish change is kinda pointless, but i cant say for certain now, i would have to test it out. I also dislike that the dragoon change is only to dragoons, and not to equally strong dragoon units (aka the musket rider, and perhaps the zamb).

the positive parts about the patch for me actually are little about the changes, its about the new maps, the bugfixes and the anti cheat.

[[Armag] diarouga]

im not saying they are neccesarily too big individually, but all together there are too many i dislike for me to have a posivite feeling about the patch.

i dont like whats done to iro, though the reverts are better than the last patch.
im not a fan of the changes to dutch banks. The old han change seems too much, though im not against it in principle, it seems just a matter of tweaking a little. the uhlan change, fre 100f, i feel like the spanish change is kinda pointless, but i cant say for certain now, i would have to test it out. I also dislike that the dragoon change is only to dragoons, and not to equally strong dragoon units (aka the musket rider, and perhaps the zamb).

What would you suggest for iro? If you have a good solution I'm sure we we ll all agree but atm we haven't found the way to balance them perfectly.
I agree that old han should have been 75% first but the team decided to do it, we'll see how it goes.

The uhlan change was meant to nerf the 100% uhlan builds and the 100f was necessary because with some treasures you were able to age 13, even with an early tp which is a big deal, while the other civs had to make a choice: either fast age up or market+slow age up.

We didn't change the musket riders and the zams because india and iro are weak atm, and kinda unique.
They rely on strong units, while being slow for india, and having a bad eco (no steel traps) for iro.
It's kinda like japan having yumis.

[momuuu]

Youre even part of the balance team, you couldve tried to help before it happened umea.

[deleted_user0]

i did try.

[lordraphael]

Boneng didnt compromise with anything, he just didnt support even minimal changes. Its ridiculous to give any weight to his statement, boneng wasnt going to support us anyway and is just giving us some shit for no reason.

lol he gave his opinion politely about why the patch hasn't been successful and about why jap players aren't playing it and what he thinks the goal of the patch should be and this is the third or so post that you're talking shit about him and making completely unbiased claims and accusations because you for some reason can't handle any criticism of the patch and think it's the new bible or smt....

What I dont like about bonengs post and im sure thats what jerom is upset about is the point that boneng is kinda implying that if the patch changed as minimal as possible ( which it did and still does btw , patch notes seem very conservative ) more people, including players from jp community, would play the patch which is just wrong imo.
You could make a "patch" which just enables esoc maps for rated play. Guess who wouldnt play it ? The jp community. Or better, the complaint would be that ESOC maps dont foster various gameplays and you should better be playing on RE instead.