Update to the Playoffs

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah, think it worked ty

Yeah your signature looks great

[Kaiserklein]

The 1st place 7 points are equivalent to a Ro4 finish in a larger tournament and the 2nd place 5 points are equivalent to a Ro8 finish. You could have a pure treaty/DM player make the playoffs but in practice we won’t see that.

If you’re looking to influence how the format for Season 2 will work, what you’ve said and what others have posted as well will certainly be taken into consideration for how we run the next event.

I mean the fact that you could have that happen shows that tr/DM represent too many points, at least if you make sup-only playoffs. So yeah it kind of penalizes sup players.
And I don't understand why winning tr and DM tourneys (same for koth actually) would help you have a spot in a sup tourney against top sup players

But yeah if you're gonna take all this into account for the next one, it's cool! And thanks anyway for organizing stuff, I ofc still enjoy playing/watching it

[princeofcarthage]

Koth is still basically a sup variation though

[lordraphael]

Tr and DM Tourneys

[Kaiserklein]

Koth is still basically a sup variation though

Yea but it's a different gamemode where different strats work. A guy could have very good strats for koth while having no clue about how to play real sup, especially against top sup players in the playoffs. But tbh since no one plays koth anyway, there are no such op koth players that would reach the playoffs like that, so it's probably fine.

[stronk]

there is going to be a koth tourney?

[Cometk]

there is going to be a koth tourney?

viewtopic.php?f=466&t=14648

[deleted_user0]

we can wonder which gamemode is more competitive tbh. Dicktator has gotten 2nd in sup. No sup player has gotten 2nd in treaty. That does say something. And it's not like he only beat noobs to get second (i checked, he kinda did) Afaik he beat you (in the first tournament), kaiser. And then beat lukas, who beat hazza, the rekker of lordraphael. So you're argument is a bit weird. And seems kinda based on the fact that you're not in the top8. That said, im going to agree that the 2v2 and DM tournaments should get reduced points as awards. Atm they weigh too heavily for what they actually represent.

it's indeed also weird that people can get into the play offs based on a gamemodes that arent played in the play offs. i like the idea of the mixed game modes, but it should also come back a little in the play offs then. hence the original idea was quite solid. Provided that it doesn't break the distribution of gamemodes as in the regular season (aka season is 50% sup 50% rest and play offs are like only 25% sup)

[Hazza54321]

sup cups and mono civ shouldve been worth more than the blitz, 2v2, and koth, more competitive

[Cometk]

sup cups and mono civ shouldve been worth more than the blitz, 2v2, and koth, more competitive

As it stands, 8 players received 5 points or more from SupCup1, compared to 2 players who received 5 points or more from the Deathmatch Open. The larger events (ie. supremacy) already are worth more, are you saying what it is currently is not enough?

[Kaiserklein]

we can wonder which gamemode is more competitive tbh. Dicktator has gotten 2nd in sup. No sup player has gotten 2nd in treaty. That does say something. And it's not like he only beat noobs to get second (i checked, he kinda did) Afaik he beat you (in the first tournament), kaiser. And then beat lukas, who beat hazza, the rekker of lordraphael. So you're argument is a bit weird. And seems kinda based on the fact that you're not in the top8. That said, im going to agree that the 2v2 and DM tournaments should get reduced points as awards. Atm they weigh too heavily for what they actually represent.

it's indeed also weird that people can get into the play offs based on a gamemodes that arent played in the play offs. i like the idea of the mixed game modes, but it should also come back a little in the play offs then. hence the original idea was quite solid. Provided that it doesn't break the distribution of gamemodes as in the regular season (aka season is 50% sup 50% rest and play offs are like only 25% sup)

I just feel like when someone won a tourney he deserves a spot in the playoffs. The same goes for lordraphael actually. But yeah I'm a bit biased too, I won't deny that.

About the treaty and sup thing, to be fair no sup player tries hard to play treaty. Dicktator plays more sup than tr at the moment I guess. So idk if it means much.

And yeah, there has to be a coherence between the game modes used on the weekend tourneys and the one used in the playoffs. At least weight it a bit more in favour of 1v1 sup if we keep sup only playoffs.

[deleted_user0]

well the point of the season is to reward consistency and participation, not just one time display of skill (or luck, depending on the brackets and sign ups). This has already been made clear. It seems like people are wanting to turn this into something it's not supposed to be, and complain about it because it's not what they want it to be, rather than criticizing it for failing to be what it wants to be (which it does do, in some ways, especially since it changed the play offs I guess to accomodate ppl's complaints, and it succeeds in others)


not saying its actually the case now, but by your logic, someone who wins a tournament only once should be in play offs, even if that person won the weakest tournament, while someone who get 2nd or 3rd/4th place (losing to finalist for example) in tournaments with much stronger opponents shouldn't. I don't think that's necessarily fair. I mean it's not necessarily unfair. It's just different.

[princeofcarthage]

The scoring is made in a way that the events with lower turnout receive lower number of points ex. DM, Blitz, ( don't even argue that mono civ is not sup ). Technically if you look at it then 8 consistent sup players, should qualify for playoffs even if someone else wins dm or blitz. If you look at it lordraphael, kaiser, prince, somppu, aiz, risi, still have a chance at qualifying, by just playing and winning sup cup 3. 2-3 among them can even qualify, depending on koth standings. Scoring system doesn't simply rewarrd participation, in fact it rewards consistency, over one time wins. You can qualify by placing say 4th in top 3 events, or win by winning 2 or by winning 1 and placing high in other 2. So the argument that winners aren't rewarded is wrong, cuz you simply need to win 2 sup tournaments to qualify, while other player has to consistently be placed in top postion(s) to qualify in 3/more events

[Goodspeed]

You have a point but rather than changing the playoffs I would consider changing the events so that there is no way to place for the playoffs without placing well in at least one of the sup events. Ways to do that include awarding much less points for alternative game modes, having less of them or simply not including them.

It already works this way.

Not enough, imo. The problem with the point system right now is that the top 8 does not have the top 8 best players in it. Ultimately that's what we want. I think the biggest issue is that the points awarded grow linearly (3-5-7-9-11). Points for 5th - 8th is almost half of the points awarded for first. 2 round of 8 finishes should not equal 1 victory, not by a very very long shot. My proposal:

Sup events:
- Winner: 20
- Second: 12
- 3/4: 6
- 5-8: 2

Alternative events:
- Winner: 12
- Second: 6
- 3/4: 2

Alternatively you can use a point system where you give points for each game won, depending on the strength of the opponent which you decide by win percentage throughout all events. But that would only work if you excluded alternative game modes.

[Goodspeed]

Top 8 would be: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

[Cometk]

@Goodspeed why even have a point system if it's that steep? it makes it absolutely pointless for the mid-to-high level player to even attempt breaking into the playoffs. so i guess that's the mission statement. with the current system, the best-of-the-best will make it to the playoffs should they want to. but there's also a glimmer of hope for the players sitting just under the top to sneak a way in.

[Goodspeed]

@Goodspeed why even have a point system if it's that steep? it makes it absolutely pointless for the mid-to-high level player to even attempt breaking into the playoffs. so i guess that's the mission statement. with the current system, the best-of-the-best will make it to the playoffs should they want to. but there's also a glimmer of hope for the players sitting just under the top to sneak a way in.

That's just not true. Only so many players can win events. 3rd/4th finishes add up, and getting second once (like somppu did) can be enough to push into the top 8. Tit and Kynesie are both not the "best of the best" either and they would still be in the top 8. We don't have 8 "best of the best" players who will always win everything making the top 8 known before you even start. There is definitely a battle for spots 4 through 8.

[stronk]

@Goodspeed why even have a point system if it's that steep? it makes it absolutely pointless for the mid-to-high level player to even attempt breaking into the playoffs. so i guess that's the mission statement. with the current system, the best-of-the-best will make it to the playoffs should they want to. but there's also a glimmer of hope for the players sitting just under the top to sneak a way in.

You could get far by winning Deathmatch and Treaty tourney while being shit at sup pretty much.

[princeofcarthage]

@Goodspeed why even have a point system if it's that steep? it makes it absolutely pointless for the mid-to-high level player to even attempt breaking into the playoffs. so i guess that's the mission statement. with the current system, the best-of-the-best will make it to the playoffs should they want to. but there's also a glimmer of hope for the players sitting just under the top to sneak a way in.

You could get far by winning Deathmatch and Treaty tourney while being shit at sup pretty much.

Just no

[Kaiserklein]

@Goodspeed why even have a point system if it's that steep? it makes it absolutely pointless for the mid-to-high level player to even attempt breaking into the playoffs. so i guess that's the mission statement. with the current system, the best-of-the-best will make it to the playoffs should they want to. but there's also a glimmer of hope for the players sitting just under the top to sneak a way in.

You could get far by winning Deathmatch and Treaty tourney while being shit at sup pretty much.

Just no

You trolling I guess?

[InsectPoison]

Show hidden quotes

@Goodspeed why even have a point system if it's that steep? it makes it absolutely pointless for the mid-to-high level player to even attempt breaking into the playoffs. so i guess that's the mission statement. with the current system, the best-of-the-best will make it to the playoffs should they want to. but there's also a glimmer of hope for the players sitting just under the top to sneak a way in.

You could get far by winning Deathmatch and Treaty tourney while being shit at sup pretty much.

Just no

You trolling I guess?

Dicktator is not shit at sup

[Kaiserklein]

This has nothing to do with the topic

[stronk]

Show hidden quotes

@Goodspeed why even have a point system if it's that steep? it makes it absolutely pointless for the mid-to-high level player to even attempt breaking into the playoffs. so i guess that's the mission statement. with the current system, the best-of-the-best will make it to the playoffs should they want to. but there's also a glimmer of hope for the players sitting just under the top to sneak a way in.

You could get far by winning Deathmatch and Treaty tourney while being shit at sup pretty much.

Just no

You trolling I guess?

Dicktator is not shit at sup

that is irrelevant

[deleted_user0]

Top 8 would be: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

There isnt a big difference with the current atandings tbh. Just kaiser and somppu are missing. Who might still get in. Instead of somppu we have hazza, and id say theyre about similar level, hazza might even be better in pure skill. But somppu is more ecperienced. Kingofosmane is no replacement for kaiser but hes a good player still. And tbh, its kaisers own fault he didnt make it in yet, by losing to lukas. But kaiser still has a shot with the last tournament.

[Goodspeed]

He won one...
You really think 2 ro8 finishes should be worth as much pts as one first?