Who should go to the final ?

[princeofcarthage]

@Veni_Vidi_Vici_W

1) If you remember correctly I granted the rehost first time when hunts spawned unfair.
2) You asked for rehost because of backherding you had (at least I was under that impression ).
3) Backherding is misplay and for that I cannot grant a rehost unless its mutual.
4) I agree decision could have been earlier and for that I apologize.
5) Game/lag is unfair to you, but then so is disqualifying them from semifinals in a won game.
6) I offered a neutral option of revaluating game by removing any 3rd party interference (caster) to see there is still lag or not to make the best possible decision. Sometimes caster can be lagging too, although I believe I wasn't. Jerimuno said there was no lag in his game vs Tit/Kynesie.
7) Both the teams refused to play an enforced rehost and as such I had to give win to the winning team.
8) I tried to make the best possible neutral decision I had too and aim wasn't to please or anger anyone.
9) Also admin (I) was present, I am not getting why are you bent on undermining it, during game and in thread as well.

[Veni_Vidi_Vici_W]

1) Yes, which was good that you did (for either team). Idk what you want to say here
2/3) Backherding usually is misplay sure, but when there is a laggspike that causes it, that makes it questionable. Which is why I let this go on and we played, so again, not sure what the point here is. Its about the constant lagg moments later on and during battles, which you yourself pointed out as well.
5) Well, that is precisely the point. Lagg is more unfair to some people (not used to it, competitive environment) than to others (who are used to it), ask any top player. Disqualifiying them after a won game is ofc a tough decision. But that decision could have been made way earlier. When they signed up, when they had red pings several times in the room (which i pointed out!), again when they lagged in the previou games. Or when it just completely froze during the big age 3 battle near their base and our units just ran into them. What else do you need from us...?
7) Ofc they refuse to play an enforced rehost, they knew playing on would be in their advantage. Thats not how it works, thats why there are admins for siuations like that. What you are suggesting is this: If my car drives into yours and its my fault, the police is not going to ask me IF i want to pay for the damage or accept a court ruling right? Its not my choice anymore. Otherwise i would refuse it as they did.
8) I get this, doesnt change the outcome though.
9) Not trying to undermine anything, if it felt like that it wasnt my intention. You responded as if you could not take the decision, or at least not alone. Im fine with that and its understandable, but that means we need to pause the game so that you can discuss it with another, all fine. We DID pause again later, but still early game, but THEY unpaused it. So we had NO option than to play, roll the dice and hope for the best and try to reason after the game.

[deleted_user0]

I think the point to focus on is that its always the same ppl and it always happens when its very convenient for them.

Its not like its the first time. Were fucking 3 years into esoc tournaments, and ever since kynesie and tit have been ruining high profile games with their fucking lag.

They know it too, and arent even humble about it. If you lagged like yhat, you simply shouldnt even sign up for tournaments. And if they lack the decency to do so, then it should be enforced for them.

[Gendarme]

viewtopic.php?t=10752

Edit: Holy fuck! Already more than a year ago.

[momuuu]

I think the point to focus on is that its always the same ppl and it always happens when its very convenient for them.

Its not like its the first time. Were fucking 3 years into esoc tournaments, and ever since kynesie and tit have been ruining high profile games with their fucking lag.

They know it too, and arent even humble about it. If you lagged like yhat, you simply shouldnt even sign up for tournaments. And if they lack the decency to do so, then it should be enforced for them.

Its also not like they've put in any effort to improve this at all. For all it seems, both tit and kynesie are completely happy with their shitty connection as it allows them to win games against better players. In a competitive environment there's a line to draw, and their consistent lag that has ruined many tournament series is waaay beyond that line in my opinion.

[bwinner]

I think the point to focus on is that its always the same ppl and it always happens when its very convenient for them.

Its not like its the first time. Were fucking 3 years into esoc tournaments, and ever since kynesie and tit have been ruining high profile games with their fucking lag.

They know it too, and arent even humble about it. If you lagged like yhat, you simply shouldnt even sign up for tournaments. And if they lack the decency to do so, then it should be enforced for them.

Its also not like they've put in any effort to improve this at all. For all it seems, both tit and kynesie are completely happy with their shitty connection as it allows them to win games against better players. In a competitive environment there's a line to draw, and their consistent lag that has ruined many tournament series is waaay beyond that line in my opinion.

There is some places where you just can't get a good internet (it's the case at my parent's home). I guess that's the same for them, would you change house just to improve your aoe experience ?

By the way as a former lagger, I can tell you lag doesn't help, that's a myth. Because what is hard to handle is not only the delay but the fact that this delay is not constant and it doesn't help to be used to it. You just get the impression it helps the other because the lag causes a lot of misstakes for you, but guess what : for your opponent aswell !
As a proof, during 3 years I used to live at my parent's house only during weekend, (si I was lagging only 2 days per week). I used a different account most of the time to play during lag. Result : the account I used during lag max pr was 26, the account I used without lag max pr was 31

[pecelot]

gosh, OP is so pretentious as usual, why would people were ever to decide such matters?

[momuuu]

I think the point to focus on is that its always the same ppl and it always happens when its very convenient for them.

Its not like its the first time. Were fucking 3 years into esoc tournaments, and ever since kynesie and tit have been ruining high profile games with their fucking lag.

They know it too, and arent even humble about it. If you lagged like yhat, you simply shouldnt even sign up for tournaments. And if they lack the decency to do so, then it should be enforced for them.

Its also not like they've put in any effort to improve this at all. For all it seems, both tit and kynesie are completely happy with their shitty connection as it allows them to win games against better players. In a competitive environment there's a line to draw, and their consistent lag that has ruined many tournament series is waaay beyond that line in my opinion.

There is some places where you just can't get a good internet (it's the case at my parent's home). I guess that's the same for them, would you change house just to improve your aoe experience ?

you are aware the internet speed required for aoe3 is like 20 kbps? Even regardless, if they can't provide stable internet then they should have the dignity to not ruin tournaments. And honestly, ESOC should have banned these guys 3 years ago from tournaments unless they improved their internet, as it simply ruins the competitive spirit of a tournament. Should've done that and never looked back at this laggers.

[Veni_Vidi_Vici_W]

There is some places where you just can't get a good internet (it's the case at my parent's home). I guess that's the same for them, would you change house just to improve your aoe experience ? .

I think its more or at least also about their PCs (it laggs during battles mostly). We live in 2018 now, not 1998.
If you cant fix it, it is unfortunate for you, but that doesnt mean you have to make it someone else's (a whole community in this case with streams) problem.

Then you are either decent enough to not participate in those tournaments, or if you lack that decency you should not be allowed. This is also how it goes in other game scenes.

Regarding lagg, it does matter if you are used to it. Also, it matters when it laggs and with what unit combo you play then, see my previous post.
And please research what proper proof is, that what you suggest doesnt say anything as you dont take into account a million other variables ^^

[momuuu]

Imagine two teams that signed up for a league. The home team has to provide the referee. Team A does provide a referee in their home match against team B, and turns out to be much better thus winning. However, when they go to team B to play there, it turns out team B hasn't provided a referee. Then, when they decide to play the game anyways, both teams start abusing the fact that there's no referee, making lots of fouls to prevent any succesful attack from being set up. Basically, they're making it much harder for the better team to actually win. This is obviously unacceptable, if you were supposed to provide a referee but did not, then the game cannot be played. Yet, you somehow legitemize this by saying "well maybe they just couldn't find one" as if that means it is okay. If this team does not have the ability to provide a referee for their home matches, they should not have signed up for the league and should be banned from the league. That's the only sensible thing to do.

[bwinner]

To make it clear, I totally agree that lag is bad for the competition ofc, I just explain that they are very unlikely to do it on purpose. (Jerom : the flow is no problem for aoe, but the ping is quickly a problem because when it's superior to 40ms it lags).
By the way, it's always shitty to make this kind of comparison : I could say it's never up to a player to find a referee or a place to play a match : in team sports it's either his team or the league and in individual sports (which is the case for aoe even for 2 players teams), it's always the league who has to find everything, so according to your shitty comparison, esoc should provide the connection (it's not the case ofc but that's how bad this kind of arguments are)

[lordraphael]

I think the point to focus on is that its always the same ppl and it always happens when its very convenient for them.

Its not like its the first time. Were fucking 3 years into esoc tournaments, and ever since kynesie and tit have been ruining high profile games with their fucking lag.

They know it too, and arent even humble about it. If you lagged like yhat, you simply shouldnt even sign up for tournaments. And if they lack the decency to do so, then it should be enforced for them.

Its also not like they've put in any effort to improve this at all. For all it seems, both tit and kynesie are completely happy with their shitty connection as it allows them to win games against better players. In a competitive environment there's a line to draw, and their consistent lag that has ruined many tournament series is waaay beyond that line in my opinion.

There is some places where you just can't get a good internet (it's the case at my parent's home). I guess that's the same for them, would you change house just to improve your aoe experience ?

By the way as a former lagger, I can tell you lag doesn't help, that's a myth. Because what is hard to handle is not only the delay but the fact that this delay is not constant and it doesn't help to be used to it. You just get the impression it helps the other because the lag causes a lot of misstakes for you, but guess what : for your opponent aswell !
As a proof, during 3 years I used to live at my parent's house only during weekend, (si I was lagging only 2 days per week). I used a different account most of the time to play during lag. Result : the account I used during lag max pr was 26, the account I used without lag max pr was 31

If you don't have good internet and know it. You don't sign up. I used to have very bad internet and if I knew that I was going to lag I simply wouldn't play aoe.

[deleted_user0]

Its simple, ofc you dont have to move to get better internet or save money to afford a pc. You are free to play if you want, and other ppl are free to avoid you, pest you etc. But in a tournament its not possible. Normally its for the organizers (home team, sports committee etc) to ensure there is a competitive environment. Because aoe is p2p, ofc esoc cant really do much other than to make rules and enforce them. This is difficult ofc, but i think in the case of titnesie the problem has been established beyond all reasonable doubt.

Wether its on purpose or not is not that relevant.

[Gendarme]

Ramex12 and Ramex19 were once known as the 5 mod 7-brothers. The name Ramex was granted to them by none other than the god of primes himself. Ramex's numerical value (where a=1, b=2, ...) is of course a 5 mod 7-prime number, and such mathematical bliss can only be explained by a deity of unfathomable power. Ramex12 was however—out of sheer bad luck—struck with the curse of ineptness, and subsequently could not see that there in fact exists one 5 mod 7-prime number smaller than 19, so he instead chose the only 5 mod 7-number under 19 he could think of despite it not being prime. For this blasphemy Ramex12 lost the right to be with his brother, and was sentenced to a life of team games with Veni.

[UpMySleeves]

They play so well with lag that they even beat Veni. Imagine this team with a good connection[no lag switch button] , literally unbeatable.

[momuuu]

They play so well with lag that they even beat Veni. Imagine this team with a good connection[no lag switch button] , literally unbeatable.

The lag is an advantage if you're used to it, and also if you're actually not the best player. If you adapt all your strategies to the lag and then train 24/7 in lag you'll actually win games that you wouldn't come close to winning without lag.

[benj89]

even though the amount of good players is limited and I really enjoy watching some of their water play, I agree that their lag shouldn't be penalizing other players during tournaments

[bwinner]

They play so well with lag that they even beat Veni. Imagine this team with a good connection[no lag switch button] , literally unbeatable.

The lag is an advantage if you're used to it, and also if you're actually not the best player. If you adapt all your strategies to the lag and then train 24/7 in lag you'll actually win games that you wouldn't come close to winning without lag.

always people who don't lag who say this bs. While the lower player advantaged may be true because it just introduces random, the "you are used to it" part is just not true.

[momuuu]

Why not? That seems ridiculous. If I practise a lot with 2 second delay I'll get used to it, I'll learn to adapt my strategies to it, I develope a better instinct to what fights will be good with the unit compositions in that lag. The latter part alone is huge.. We have a very good sense of what army compositions work like, when a fight is good to take and when not. When it lags like crazy during big battles, that experience we have doesn't really have any value as armies literally behave differntly and micro is much less effective. You're insane if you think something like musk huss vs skirm goon doesn't go very differently during lag. Kynesie and to some extend tit have a lot of experience playing in this lag environment. They'll be better at understanding when their musk huss composition is going to do well, while other players will consistently overestimate their ability to micro in a battle (which will turn out to be impossible due ot the shitty lag kynesie and tit bring alongside with them).

It's unfair in almost every way you look at it. You're coming up with the craziest stuff to try to side with your french mates. The lag is unacceptable and would never be accepted in any serious competitive environment. I have no idea why ESOC hasn't come forward and straight up told especially kynesie that if he doesn't fix his lag, he will be banned from all future tournaments. And for the record, they should do this to all notorious laggers like for example kickass and tit. If you cant provide a decent setup and internet connection, there's no reason for you to sign up for a tournament. These people knowingly ruin the tournament, the competitive environment and are just bringing in something that is obviously in their advantage without ever feeling a single bit of regret or ever attempt to even fix it (kynesie still plays with his bullshit mods enabled). I don't understand why anyone would have tolerance for this.

[bwinner]

They are not my mates, I never play with them, but I have a big experience of lag and I perfectly know it doesn't help. I explained one already in a post in thiss thread. Then it's very discriminating to ban people bc they lag Imo and that's easy to say this for the guy who can easily have a good internet. I used to live somewhere you can't get any stable decent internet connexion, neither a good mobile netword and I feel like it's a bit rude to be excluded from the community due to this. Even though it introduce a bit of randomeness, it's not like the better player still win in most case anyway.
However I perfectly understand how rude it is to play vs this lag and I don't have any good solution to provide. I am not sure about the solution of just banning some individuals.
Maybe you could have a precise rule about the lag, like if the ping of the player is superior to x ms he can't play the match (could be a rule that the opponent could call if he is suspicious), but I have no idea how it could be done without being a mess...

[momuuu]

Of course it is discriminating. You're making a discrimination between those that don't have the ability to play games without lag and those that do. It's sad for them, but that doesn't mean the community and staff should allow them to drag everyone down to their level. It's like I have aids, then have unprotected sex with as many people as possible, and then you come in claiming it's okay because I couldn't actually get my aids cured. How does this make any amount of sense?

[Hazza54321]

who would have unprotected sex with you anyway

[momuuu]

who would have unprotected sex with you anyway

Its of course all hypothetical.

[deleted_user]

Idk I'd consider it

[BrookG]

who would have unprotected sex with you anyway

Its of course all hypothetical.

Why use condoms, they are too tight. I prefer balloons.