2nd Chance Seeding Discussion

[Kaiserklein]

Major_Dark is in the RO16 of the main tourney

[bwinner]

actually there is other people who are still in main event aswell (gibthedurrty, gua, maybe more ?) what is the rule @Cometk

[Mr_Bramboy]

I read something about second chance restrictions being relaxed in the staff chats but that is a little strange. What's the point of having a 'second chance' tournament if active RO16 players are participating? Might as well call it a second seasonal championship at that point.

[Kaiserklein]

No that must be a mistake. You're supposed to be able to join second chance only after losing in RO32 of the main tourney or losing in qualifiers/placements.

[Mr_Bramboy]

No that must be a mistake. You're supposed to be able to join second chance only after losing in RO32 of the main tourney or losing in qualifiers/placements.

I believe so too; there might have been a mistake while creating threads. I've pinged the media team so we'll have a response soon.

For the record, I'm not working on any of this anymore so I have just as much of a clue as anyone else here

[EAGLEMUT]

I'm not clear on what were the final restrictions for entering 2nd chance, if any, but it is not a mistake.

[Kaiserklein]

I'm not clear on what were the final restrictions for entering 2nd chance, if any, but it is not a mistake.

Well it must be a mistake. Or do you think it makes sense that some players can play both the main tourney and the second chance tourney simultaneously?

[Mr_Bramboy]

I'm not clear on what were the final restrictions for entering 2nd chance, if any, but it is not a mistake.

Well it must be a mistake. Or do you think it makes sense that some players can play both the main tourney and the second chance tourney simultaneously?

Apparently, it is by design. Comet will/was going to comment soon.

[Kaiserklein]

Then I don't understand why it's called "second chance" lol. First chance hasn't even been used yet.
But I'll stop spamming the scheduling thread here

[Kaiserklein]

So basically you consider that he's already lost vs lordraphael

[Hazza54321]

so bm lol, especially when rapha will lose even with a powercut where major dark lives

[Major_dark]

So basically you consider that he's already lost vs lordraphael

possibly, but i won't give up before to play vs Lord

[Kaiserklein]

And you shouldn't give up. But that's what ESOC is apparently pushing you to do, by asking you to play "Second chance" before you even used your first chance.

[edeholland]

And you shouldn't give up. But that's what ESOC is apparently pushing you to do, by asking you to play "Second chance" before you even used your first chance.

I'm pretty sure nobody wants him to give up. He won't suddenly be kicked from this tournament if he wins the game vs Raphael.

[Kaiserklein]

Then why is the second chance thread created before he even lost to raphael?
Honestly if I was in that position, and saw that even the admins basically tell me "you have no chance, it's already over, just start scheduling for second chance", I'd just forfeit from the main tourney. You're supposed to encourage people to play their games out, not demotivate them.

Btw I thought second chance was only for people losing until RO32 anyway?

[EAGLEMUT]

Then why is the second chance thread created before he even lost to raphael?
Honestly if I was in that position, and saw that even the admins basically tell me "you have no chance, it's already over, just start scheduling for second chance", I'd just forfeit from the main tourney. You're supposed to encourage people to play their games out, not demotivate them.

He has signed up for 2nd chance himself, no one from the staff forced this situation to "demotivate" him.

[gh0st]

Then why is the second chance thread created before he even lost to raphael?
Honestly if I was in that position, and saw that even the admins basically tell me "you have no chance, it's already over, just start scheduling for second chance", I'd just forfeit from the main tourney. You're supposed to encourage people to play their games out, not demotivate them.

He has signed up for 2nd chance himself, no one from the staff forced this situation to "demotivate" him.

but making him schedule for 2nd chance tourney(let alone playing them), when he is still in main tourney is quite demotivating for him honestly.

[tabben]

pretty sure these scheduling threads were created automatically, and not manually to discourage him from playing main tourney

[Kaiserklein]

Of course no one is trying to demotivate him on purpose... But that's not the point. The point is, a tournament is supposed to be as competitive as possible. Players need to try their best and play for the win. And tourney admins are supposed to encourage players to go in that direction.
But asking someone to schedule for second chance, while he's still in the main tourney, is obviously NOT encouraging him to try hard to win. It's instead encouraging him to start preparing for the lower level tourney, because everyone considers he's already lost.

Either way, it just makes no sense to have players schedule in both tourneys simultaneously. Even the name of "second chance" goes against that logic.

[EAGLEMUT]

pretty sure these scheduling threads were created automatically, and not manually to discourage him from playing main tourney

Yes, they are created with a tool, but even if they weren't, I absolutely fail to see the problem. Signing up for an event signals that you want to schedule and play in that event, seems like a no-brainer to me. Note I would be in this exact same situation had I won the match in main event.

Of course no one is trying to demotivate him on purpose... But that's not the point. The point is, a tournament is supposed to be as competitive as possible. Players need to try their best and play for the win. And tourney admins are supposed to encourage players to go in that direction.
But asking someone to schedule for second chance, while he's still in the main tourney, is obviously NOT encouraging him to try hard to win. It's instead encouraging him to start preparing for the lower level tourney, because everyone considers he's already lost.

If you sign up for 2nd chance before losing main event, the one who considers you've already lost is first and foremost yourself.

Either way, it just makes no sense to have players schedule in both tourneys simultaneously. Even the name of "second chance" goes against that logic.

That I can agree with. The media team has bent the rules in good faith to allow more players to play 2nd chance if they so wish, but it comes at the cost of blurring the line.

[gh0st]

Of course no one is trying to demotivate him on purpose... But that's not the point. The point is, a tournament is supposed to be as competitive as possible. Players need to try their best and play for the win. And tourney admins are supposed to encourage players to go in that direction.
But asking someone to schedule for second chance, while he's still in the main tourney, is obviously NOT encouraging him to try hard to win. It's instead encouraging him to start preparing for the lower level tourney, because everyone considers he's already lost.

If you sign up for 2nd chance before losing main event, the one who considers you've already lost is first and foremost yourself.

Well, It makes sense for Major_Dark to sign up before losing the main event, coz he played his ro32 game on 30th sept (19 gmt or so) which was deadline for 2nd chance sign ups. So not a mistake on his part, jus a weird situation for him to be in . Anyways I hope staff resolves this

[EAGLEMUT]

Of course no one is trying to demotivate him on purpose... But that's not the point. The point is, a tournament is supposed to be as competitive as possible. Players need to try their best and play for the win. And tourney admins are supposed to encourage players to go in that direction.
But asking someone to schedule for second chance, while he's still in the main tourney, is obviously NOT encouraging him to try hard to win. It's instead encouraging him to start preparing for the lower level tourney, because everyone considers he's already lost.

If you sign up for 2nd chance before losing main event, the one who considers you've already lost is first and foremost yourself.

Well, It makes sense for Major_Dark to sign up before losing the main event, coz he played his ro32 game on 30th sept (19 gmt or so) which was deadline for 2nd chance sign ups. So not a mistake on his part, jus a weird situation for him to be in . Anyways I hope staff resolves this

As there was no mistake on anyone's part, I don't see what needs to be resolved. Perhaps the next 2nd chance event will have tighter rules once again.

[Kaiserklein]

Of course no one is trying to demotivate him on purpose... But that's not the point. The point is, a tournament is supposed to be as competitive as possible. Players need to try their best and play for the win. And tourney admins are supposed to encourage players to go in that direction.
But asking someone to schedule for second chance, while he's still in the main tourney, is obviously NOT encouraging him to try hard to win. It's instead encouraging him to start preparing for the lower level tourney, because everyone considers he's already lost.

If you sign up for 2nd chance before losing main event, the one who considers you've already lost is first and foremost yourself.

No. Basically, you need to sign up before you played your game, because if you lose and you didn't sign up, then you're fucked. That doesn't mean that you consider you've already lost, just that you take that possibility into account, and make sure you can play in second chance in that case.
I'd agree with you if only the deadline for signing up to second chance was late enough. Here, clearly, there's no choice: you have to sign up to second chance before you're out of main tourney, or else it will be past deadline and you won't be able to sign up.

As a result of this, you end up having players being in both tourneys at the same time, which totally goes against the logic of second chance, and does push the players into thinking they're anyway gonna lose in main tourney and should just start scheduling for the lower tourney. And as I explained, that's not a competitive spirit.
Also, what if major_dark wins vs lordraphael? Obviously it's very unlikely, but it's still a possibility. Do you generate brackets and threads again? :S

So that's ESOC's fault. Not the player's. Where was the mistake? Either 1) the deadline for signing up is too early (as in, second chance started too early) or 2) players shouldn't be able to join second chance if they reach RO16.
Not a huge deal anyway.

[EAGLEMUT]

Basically, you need to sign up before you played your game, because if you lose and you didn't sign up, then you're fucked. That doesn't mean that you consider you've already lost, just that you take that possibility into account, and make sure you can play in second chance in that case.
I'd agree with you if only the deadline for signing up to second chance was late enough. Here, clearly, there's no choice: you have to sign up to second chance before you're out of main tourney, or else it will be past deadline and you won't be able to sign up.

I'd agree with this point if there was actually any round restriction, but thing is, the only restriction in the end was that tourney admins decided whether you're too good to participate, so even lordraphael, you, or anyone else could attempt to sign up at any point, regardless of how far you are in the main tournament - the deadline doesn't really matter. Let me quote the last statement posted on 2nd chance entry rules:

Basically the only thing barring entry to the tournament is, as the original King of the Trashcans @Vinyanyérë says, "whether you're any good or not", at the discretion of the tourney admins.

Whether that's a good idea of how to run the 2nd chance event, is another matter. It is something new that the admins tried out.

As a result of this, you end up having players being in both tourneys at the same time, which totally goes against the logic of second chance, and does push the players into thinking they're anyway gonna lose in main tourney and should just start scheduling for the lower tourney. And as I explained, that's not a competitive spirit.
Also, what if major_dark wins vs lordraphael? Obviously it's very unlikely, but it's still a possibility. Do you generate brackets and threads again? :S

No, my understanding definitely is that major_dark can win both events from this point.

[Kaiserklein]

Well if you can go as far as you want in main tourney, and even win it, while still being in the second chance, then it's not a "second chance" tournament, but another tourney.
Also yeah, admins simply deciding whether you're bad enough to join or not sounds like a bad idea