edurdoscool vs Aizamk

[[Armag] diarouga]

I'm fine with snare removed

[deleted_user0]

Lol... stop fucking ruining this game. Honestly...

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I would argue the unit was kind of broken before the change.

More so than now? Based on feedback, it seems unpopular.

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Yeah ofc having an unkillable unit snaring your stuff is quite broken. I think we need something in between EP and RE

Is it unkillable, though? Try heavy infantry, or just focus fire.

As per Aizamk's suggestion, ranged resistance could be nerfed. Besides, I doubt Garja would approve of removing snare. In fact, he's probably sick at the very thought of it.

[Garja]

cav tag for WC is totally fine, other explorers have RI tag, they take extra damage from lancers and cannons

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cav tag for WC is totally fine, other explorers have RI tag, they take extra damage from lancers and cannons

It might just be a typo, on your part, but we aren't discussing the cavalry tag, rather the heavy cavalry tag.

As well, the "ranged infantry" tag doesn't affect bonus damage from Lancers. Only "infantry" does that.

[Garja]

Ye, my bad I typed without re-reading. Anyway, what I meant is just that every explorer has several other units directly countering it, while Sioux explorer (and India monks) only have heavy infantry. So heavy cav tag is fine to let goons counter it. Sioux WC is not weak anyway.

[Aizamk]

Ye, my bad I typed without re-reading. Anyway, what I meant is just that every explorer has several other units directly countering it, while Sioux explorer (and India monks) only have heavy infantry. So heavy cav tag is fine to let goons counter it. Sioux WC is not weak anyway.

First of all, I think adding HC tag to sioux WC is more akin to adding HI tag to infantry explorers.

But that's besides the point.
The main issue is that native play is by design supposed to revolve around the warchief, and this is especially important for sioux because their army is always mobile, and they win a lot of the time because of how you can pick fights due to this. You fight, you bring him along. And by default the guy is always in front because he is brave native american. Sioux's big advantage more than anything else is their army's mobility. Take away their warchief and with EP buffs you still have a decent civ, but is it really sioux if one attack move from 10 goons is enough to remove their (actual) civ bonus? Plus there's the issue of how sioux has historically been weak against wall+goon combos.

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Ye, my bad I typed without re-reading. Anyway, what I meant is just that every explorer has several other units directly countering it, while Sioux explorer (and India monks) only have heavy infantry. So heavy cav tag is fine to let goons counter it. Sioux WC is not weak anyway.

To invoke Garja's law, maybe there's a reason why cavalry explorers lack the heavy cavalry tag.

[Garja]

The reason is that, as Aiz pointed out other meelee explorers don't have HI tag. In general explorers don't have one specific tag, but only general ones (cav, infantry, etc.).
However, by lacking the HI tag they don't only avoid being countered by skirms but they also do get countered by all Asian cav. Also all explorers have ranged resistance anyway, despite some of them are meele infantry units. This means that chinese monk and Aztec WC are not even full HI units by design. Cannons also don't discern HI from non HI, so they counter all infantry explorers.

As for Sioux WC relative strenght, I start wondering if you have got it quite right. Sioux WC on RE is frankly broken. Just as example, 9 BR vs 20 xbows, xbows win hard. 9 BR+WC, BR (almost) win. And I'm pretty sure it is even worse with skirms and vetaran WC. Not to mention when it combines with teepee HP boost.
The fact that goons can finally counter the WC doesn't take away from his speed boost or his high stats. It's just adding one legit counter to the unit.
And as for walls, we are already nerfing them, plus Sioux have siege dance which is sometimes often better than low mobility siege like cannons (same dynamic as why petards are better than cannons, except cav is even more mobile).

It is probably one of those rare cases where a change isn't completely consistent in design but it greatly improves balance. And since the design of explorers itself isn't that defined anyway, I think it is a totally justified change. Indian monks should have the same treatment as they are just as problematic.

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The reason is that, as Aiz pointed out other meelee explorers don't have HI tag. In general explorers don't have one specific tag, but only general ones (cav, infantry, etc.).
However, by lacking the HI tag they don't only avoid being countered by skirms but they also do get countered by all Asian cav. Also all explorers have ranged resistance anyway, despite some of them are meele infantry units. This means that chinese monk and Aztec WC are not even full HI units by design. Cannons also don't discern HI from non HI, so they counter all infantry explorers.

As for Sioux WC relative strenght, I start wondering if you have got it quite right. Sioux WC on RE is frankly broken. Just as example, 9 BR vs 20 xbows, xbows win hard. 9 BR+WC, BR (almost) win. And I'm pretty sure it is even worse with skirms and vetaran WC. Not to mention when it combines with teepee HP boost.
The fact that goons can finally counter the WC doesn't take away from his speed boost or his high stats. It's just adding one legit counter to the unit.
And as for walls, we are already nerfing them, plus Sioux have siege dance which is sometimes often better than low mobility siege like cannons (same dynamic as why petards are better than cannons, except cav is even more mobile).

It is probably one of those rare cases where a change isn't completely consistent in design but it greatly improves balance. And since the design of explorers itself isn't that defined anyway, I think it is a totally justified change. Indian monks should have the same treatment as they are just as problematic.

I don't think your example proves your point very well. The fact that light cavalry can counter the WC takes away from everything it is, because it dies immediately. It's about the utility of the unit.

Further, Brahmin Monks lack snare and speed, both. Removing snare from Sioux WC makes more sense than giving it the "heavy cavalry" tag.

[Garja]

The thing is the explorer doesn't even die immediately because it still has 1000+ HP and regardless it's not always practical nor possible to focus fire on it. Taking away everything from it, is basically the equivalent of saying that the WC becomes weak with the tag addition, which is simply not true.

Removing snare breaks one thing that is consistent with explorers design, while still not solving the issue of having a 1k hp unkillable unit in front of the cav deathball. The snare would only remove one of the perks a cav unit has (speed, ranged resistance, infantry neg multiplier remain). It just makes sense to treat the cav unit like other cav units.

Regarding the monks, I can agree with the lack of speed and to some extent with the snare. Then again lack of snare is the compensation for having two of them and they have stomp anyway. Also they still outrun infantry so they end up doing the same job of the Sioux WC. I think one thing that they have in common is that when they are mixed with units of the supposed same type (AR/DS and mahouts respectively) they just tank lot of shoots being not counterable. This makes all other units more effective. The same goes for Chinese and Aztec monk I guess. Then again skirms don't have a neg multiplier vs them and if you want to add the HI tag to those units you also need to restore cover mode and give them a meelee resistance.
The only difference between monks and Sioux WC is that they are not nearly as strong.

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The thing is the explorer doesn't even die immediately because it still has 1000+ HP and regardless it's not always practical nor possible to focus fire on it. Taking away everything from it, is basically the equivalent of saying that the WC becomes weak with the tag addition, which is simply not true.

Removing snare breaks one thing that is consistent with explorers design, while still not solving the issue of having a 1k hp unkillable unit in front of the cav deathball. The snare would only remove one of the perks a cav unit has (speed, ranged resistance, infantry neg multiplier remain). It just makes sense to treat the cav unit like other cav units.

Regarding the monks, I can agree with the lack of speed and to some extent with the snare. Then again lack of snare is the compensation for having two of them and they have stomp anyway. Also they still outrun infantry so they end up doing the same job of the Sioux WC. I think one thing that they have in common is that when they are mixed with units of the supposed same type (AR/DS and mahouts respectively) they just tank lot of shoots being not counterable. This makes all other units more effective. The same goes for Chinese and Aztec monk I guess. Then again skirms don't have a neg multiplier vs them and if you want to add the HI tag to those units you also need to restore cover mode and give them a meelee resistance.
The only difference between monks and Sioux WC is that they are not nearly as strong.

I'm not sure that's the case. Clearly, it does become quite weak. It wasn't meant literally. It means that the presence of the tag makes its abilities radically less useful.

Actually, removing snare makes one thing that is consistent with hero design. There is one other cavalry hero in the game, and it lacks snare.

[Garja]

That's not because it is cav, but rather because India has 2 explorers.
And no, in no way Sioux WC abilities become radically less useful. He still does everything he did before excpet it's easier for goons to kil him. Let alone the WC doesn't become weak at all, since it was too strong before that. It can't go from an extreme to the other just because it's now legitimately countered by another unit.

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That's not because it is cav, but rather because India has 2 explorers.

Maybe it is.

And no, in no way Sioux WC abilities become radically less useful. He still does everything he did before excpet it's easier for goons to kil him.

Exactly!

Let alone the WC doesn't become weak at all, since it was too strong before that. It can't go from an extreme to the other just because it's now legitimately countered by another unit.

Actually, it absolutely can. Balance doesn't adhere to your maxims. It's all relative.

Another option is to add the "Villager" tag to the unit, so he would take 50% more damage from light cavalry, as opposed to 200%.

[Garja]

My perception of balance tends to adhere pretty well to actual balance. Sioux WC doesn't go from OP to UP with just that. It would need more nerfs for it to be the case.

[Kaiserklein]

Another option is to add the "Villager" tag to the unit, so he would take 50% more damage from light cavalry, as opposed to 200%.

That would be really bad design, for example explorers would do almost no damage to the hero then, and opris would have a 3 multiplier against it

[bwinner]

Another option is to add the "Villager" tag to the unit, so he would take 50% more damage from light cavalry, as opposed to 200%.

That would be really bad design, for example explorers would do almost no damage to the hero then, and opris would have a 3 multiplier against it

agreed. More reasonable would be the light inf tag which get the same multiplier as cav but not as big usually, but it would still make no sens for WC to be infanterie

[HUMMAN]

make unique tag ez

[Hazza54321]

Not sure i like removing the snare it changes their age 1 alot which is a key advantage for sioux

[dansil92]

What about the coyoteman tag? Small bonus at range for dragoons and decent bonus for pikes etc?

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Another option is to add the "Villager" tag to the unit, so he would take 50% more damage from light cavalry, as opposed to 200%.

That would be really bad design, for example explorers would do almost no damage to the hero then, and opris would have a 3 multiplier against it

Agreed. That is dumb as shit.

What about keeping the tag, but buffing ranged resistance?

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make unique tag ez

Would have to add it to all light cavalry + Eagle Runner Knights, I think.

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What about the coyoteman tag? Small bonus at range for dragoons and decent bonus for pikes etc?

Please see below. Also, heavy infantry does no bonus damage to the coyoteman tag; only the light infantry tag.

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Another option is to add the "Villager" tag to the unit, so he would take 50% more damage from light cavalry, as opposed to 200%.

That would be really bad design, for example explorers would do almost no damage to the hero then, and opris would have a 3 multiplier against it

agreed. More reasonable would be the light inf tag which get the same multiplier as cav but not as big usually, but it would still make no sens for WC to be infanterie

Light cavalry has no bonus against light infantry. Do you mean the coyoteman tag? That would be bad, because it's over 90% of the damage light cavalry does against heavy cavalry, so it would make little difference, and have the same drawback (being technically incorrect).