KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

[KINGofOsmane]

[spoiler=Result]3-2 for KINGofOsmane[/spoiler]

[KINGofOsmane]

gg i guess lol

[[Armag] diarouga]

I think we need to remove the abus range bonus in age 3. In this last game, the lack of apm by bwinner was quite shocking frankly, and he still almost won because of otto vills and attack move units.

[gibson]

otto has always been and will always be a low skill civ, theres no way to keep it unique while changing that

[Aykin Haraka]

only because osamana did not send mamouta on fire out of stable

[pecelot]

I think we need to remove the abus range bonus in age 3. In this last game, the lack of apm by bwinner was quite shocking frankly, and he still almost won because of otto vills and attack move units.

someone said something once about judging balance from not top players' games

[deleted_user0]

so one must conclude that beewinner is top8 player.

[bwinner]

I think we need to remove the abus range bonus in age 3. In this last game, the lack of apm by bwinner was quite shocking frankly, and he still almost won because of otto vills and attack move units.

no

[[Armag] diarouga]

I think we need to remove the abus range bonus in age 3. In this last game, the lack of apm by bwinner was quite shocking frankly, and he still almost won because of otto vills and attack move units.

someone said something once about judging balance from not top players' games

It's not really a balance change. It just didn't make sense to buff the abus range.

[bwinner]

This is so hard to mass abus in age 3 with ottomans that you need them to be good.
Furthermore, it's especially good vs india because zamburak don't work very well in this MU and gurkas have less range than skirm. Vs standard skirm/goons/Huss compositions, abus are not that good.
Anyway making a balance decision bc a noob "almost beat" another noob is ridiculous.

[VooDoo_BoSs]

otto has always been and will always be a low skill civ, theres no way to keep it unique while changing that

Then why is otto so underrepresented in top players / games?

If it was easy to win as otto then you would constantly see it in grand finals for all the tournaments - but you almost never do.

[[Armag] diarouga]

otto has always been and will always be a low skill civ, theres no way to keep it unique while changing that

Then why is otto so underrepresented in top players / games?

If it was easy to win as otto then you would constantly see it in grand finals for all the tournaments - but you almost never do.

Because we boycott this civ as it is a noob civ. The only guy who plays Otto at high level is kaiserklein, and he has great results with that civ.
Even on the RE, you're never going to see people like H2O play it outside mirror.

[bwinner]

otto has always been and will always be a low skill civ, theres no way to keep it unique while changing that

Then why is otto so underrepresented in top players / games?

If it was easy to win as otto then you would constantly see it in grand finals for all the tournaments - but you almost never do.

Because we boycott this civ as it is a noob civ. The only guy who plays Otto at high level is kaiserklein, and he has great results with that civ.
Even on the RE, you're never going to see people like H2O play it outside mirror.

This is pure bs. Kaiserklein has great results because he only uses otto as a counter pick on heavy TP maps. He would have great results aswell if he was doing it with any other civ.
Btw you and Kaiser didn't give me the good advices about Otto vs india. Still ty for trying to help, but the only good player who knew a bit about India vs Otto is somppu. I would probably have lost 3-0 if I had played age 2 every game like you told me to, and probably have won the serie if I had try to play age 3 every game. So I would say you have no clue.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Show hidden quotes

otto has always been and will always be a low skill civ, theres no way to keep it unique while changing that

Then why is otto so underrepresented in top players / games?

If it was easy to win as otto then you would constantly see it in grand finals for all the tournaments - but you almost never do.

Because we boycott this civ as it is a noob civ. The only guy who plays Otto at high level is kaiserklein, and he has great results with that civ.
Even on the RE, you're never going to see people like H2O play it outside mirror.

This is pure bs. Kaiserklein has great results because he only uses otto as a counter pick on heavy TP maps. He would have great results aswell if he was doing it with any other civ.
Btw you and Kaiser didn't give me the good advices about Otto vs india. Still ty for trying to help, but the only good player who knew a bit about India vs Otto is somppu. I would probably have lost 3-0 if I had played age 2 every game like you told me to, and probably have won the serie if I had try to play age 3 every game. So I would say you have no clue.

I didn't know that Osmane couldn't deal with a ff lol. Actually, it's quite easy to beat a ff with India if you scout it. I still think that colonial play is the best way.

[momuuu]

Should've asked Umeu for advice. He's solid in lamer match ups haha.

[Hawk_Girl]

Show hidden quotes

otto has always been and will always be a low skill civ, theres no way to keep it unique while changing that

Then why is otto so underrepresented in top players / games?

If it was easy to win as otto then you would constantly see it in grand finals for all the tournaments - but you almost never do.

Because we boycott this civ as it is a noob civ. The only guy who plays Otto at high level is kaiserklein, and he has great results with that civ.
Even on the RE, you're never going to see people like H2O play it outside mirror.

This is pure bs. Kaiserklein has great results because he only uses otto as a counter pick on heavy TP maps. He would have great results aswell if he was doing it with any other civ.
Btw you and Kaiser didn't give me the good advices about Otto vs india. Still ty for trying to help, but the only good player who knew a bit about India vs Otto is somppu. I would probably have lost 3-0 if I had played age 2 every game like you told me to, and probably have won the serie if I had try to play age 3 every game. So I would say you have no clue.

I didn't know that Osmane couldn't deal with a ff lol. Actually, it's quite easy to beat a ff with India if you scout it. I still think that colonial play is the best way.

what should india do then if ff is scouted?

[flontier]

You just need one howdah and rekt 30jan 2 falcs and 4 mams

[gibson]

otto has always been and will always be a low skill civ, theres no way to keep it unique while changing that

Then why is otto so underrepresented in top players / games?

If it was easy to win as otto then you would constantly see it in grand finals for all the tournaments - but you almost never do.

thats not relevant to anything I said. Just cause a civ is low skill doesn't mean it's good. Why would high skill players use a low skill civ anyway?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea you can go for some howdahs and kill everything. I'm afraid you'll get them too late tho. The easiest is to go for a naked ff (600w/600c) and train sepoys in age 3. You'll kill the falcs with the siege elephants and it will be fine.
I know that in game 2, Osmane went for 5sepoys/600w/300export with an awful macro, that was way too slow so he took a huge amount of damage.

[VooDoo_BoSs]

otto has always been and will always be a low skill civ, theres no way to keep it unique while changing that

Then why is otto so underrepresented in top players / games?

If it was easy to win as otto then you would constantly see it in grand finals for all the tournaments - but you almost never do.

Because we boycott this civ as it is a noob civ. The only guy who plays Otto at high level is kaiserklein, and he has great results with that civ.
Even on the RE, you're never going to see people like H2O play it outside mirror.

This is ridiculous. When have, in the history of AOE3, all the top players decided to conspire and collectively boycott a civ because it's noob or too easy? When Japan / Iro / India etc. were instant wins due to imbalance in the earlier patches, they were used in 99% of all games. in 2010/11, I was by far the highest rated Otto player with a 1v1 ELO in top 10, yet I still had a better win rate with Port / Brit / France than Otto.

But fine, don't take my anecdote.

Just look at the 1v1 ELO ladder to see how underrepresented otto is:

http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/lad ... &pid=89635

Top players don't play otto because they are difficult to win with at the top level. You need to get TPs and / or sea or you have simply zero chance, and this can be very easy to counter (simply explorer + scout / disciple, whatever right click on otto TP and kill otto explorer). Otto is extremely vulnerable to ranged cavalry or even hand cavalry due to lack of decent alternatives. You can, literally, just spam goons and beat otto most of the time.

This series almost proved it. Looking at the 44m game that India won, India literally walled off and was able to beat otto that was booming from 3 TCs + entire map. Of course otto played bad losing many vills to raids, but it kind of reinforced my point as otto struggles vs cavalry in mid-late game.

You need to have evidence to back up your claims:

1) There is a big conspiracy amongst all top players to intentionally leave out easy wins by refusing to use Otto OR
2) Otto is not that good at the top level.

Occam's razor says #2 is correct.

[VooDoo_BoSs]

otto has always been and will always be a low skill civ, theres no way to keep it unique while changing that

Then why is otto so underrepresented in top players / games?

If it was easy to win as otto then you would constantly see it in grand finals for all the tournaments - but you almost never do.

thats not relevant to anything I said. Just cause a civ is low skill doesn't mean it's good. Why would high skill players use a low skill civ anyway?

Low skill implies you don't need skill to do well with them. Therefore, logic would entail that if you have skill, you will do disproportionately better with ottoman than peers using other civs.

[gibson]

Show hidden quotes

otto has always been and will always be a low skill civ, theres no way to keep it unique while changing that

Then why is otto so underrepresented in top players / games?

If it was easy to win as otto then you would constantly see it in grand finals for all the tournaments - but you almost never do.

thats not relevant to anything I said. Just cause a civ is low skill doesn't mean it's good. Why would high skill players use a low skill civ anyway?

Low skill implies you don't need skill to do well with them. Therefore, logic would entail that if you have skill, you will do disproportionately better with ottoman than peers using other civs.

i guess logics never heard of a low skill ceiling

[momuuu]

Show hidden quotes

otto has always been and will always be a low skill civ, theres no way to keep it unique while changing that

Then why is otto so underrepresented in top players / games?

If it was easy to win as otto then you would constantly see it in grand finals for all the tournaments - but you almost never do.

Because we boycott this civ as it is a noob civ. The only guy who plays Otto at high level is kaiserklein, and he has great results with that civ.
Even on the RE, you're never going to see people like H2O play it outside mirror.

This is ridiculous. When have, in the history of AOE3, all the top players decided to conspire and collectively boycott a civ because it's noob or too easy?.

This didn't really happen. What did happen was that ESOC decided to host the first tournaments with Iro/Otto banned. This made sense at the time, because otherwise all games would involve mostly iro/otto mirrors like what happened in the PKClan tournaments. I think eventually this trickled down to casual ESO games, where more and more people started to frown upon the usage of those civs and those civs weren't relevant for competitive play (tournaments) so people might have steered away from them. The result is that we have a large player base of players that became active/good somewhere near the beginning of ESOC (unlike you and me for example) and thus haven't really picked up Otto over the course of their aoe3 career.

That's why otto is underrepresented. I don't think it's because Otto is too noob/easy but because it was actually banned for a little while in a very crucial period for the community.

[knusch]

This series almost proved it. Looking at the 44m game that India won, India literally walled off and was able to beat otto that was booming from 3 TCs + entire map. Of course otto played bad losing many vills to raids, but it kind of reinforced my point as otto struggles vs cavalry in mid-late game.

if anything this game shows that india can't do anything vs abus. thats what dia is referring to... (whether it should ever get to that point is another story)

loosing xx vills next to tcs doesnt rly shows a weakness to cav, it just means u not looking

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, bwinner could have walled too to prevent raids. Also as knusch pointed out, he just wasn't paying attention. At one point he made CAs, and still couldn't catch the raids lol.