KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

[[Armag] diarouga]

Why should goons counter abus ?

Because, as I said, for practical reasons, hand cav doesn't really counter abus, which means that in middle/late game you can't reall counter them. If you think about it, all the other units have at least 2 effective counters, including one ranged counter, except abus.

[bwinner]

Why should goons counter abus ?

Because, as I said, for practical reasons, hand cav doesn't really counter abus, which means that in middle/late game you can't reall counter them. If you think about it, all the other units have at least 2 effective counters, including one ranged counter, except abus.

Well no. Goons are hard countered by 0 unit of ottomans already. And only LI counters them for other civ (musk do ok, but we can't talk about a counter still).

[[Armag] diarouga]

Why should goons counter abus ?

Because, as I said, for practical reasons, hand cav doesn't really counter abus, which means that in middle/late game you can't reall counter them. If you think about it, all the other units have at least 2 effective counters, including one ranged counter, except abus.

Well no. Goons are hard countered by 0 unit of ottomans already. And only LI counters them for other civ (musk do ok, but we can't talk about a counter still).

Jans/abus counters goon.
Just test 30 vet jans/20 vet abus vs 37 vet goons, and tell me that you can't hard counter goons lol. You even have the range advantage, it's not close.
Also to be fair, musk vs goon is much better than goon vs abus.
Anyway, the point is that abus are lame, because if you don't have a good cav units (think of India, Aztecs), you just can't deal with abus.

[Hazza54321]

you need both vs goon

[bwinner]

If you considere that you can't use your cav with aztec/india, LI becomes OP with anyciv anyway, it makes no sens.
All this is anyway useless bs discution. Only things that matters is that Otto need to be balanced and not broken. Since they are not too strong and we still don't see Otto going late game for abus every game (we almost never sée this actually), there is absolutly no reason to nerf abus in late game.

[[Armag] diarouga]

If you considere that you can't use your cav with aztec/india, LI becomes OP with anyciv anyway, it makes no sens.
All this is anyway useless bs discution. Only things that matters is that Otto need to be balanced and not broken. Since they are not too strong and we still don't see Otto going late game for abus every game (we almost never sée this actually), there is absolutly no reason to nerf abus in late game.

Well, you can counter LI with LI, that's the difference.

[Mitoe]

Didn't watch the series but it sounds like Osmane needed howdah

[[Armag] diarouga]

Didn't watch the series but it sounds like Osmane needed howdah

With the abus range buff, you can't go howdah anymore, they get rekt.

[bwinner]

Didn't watch the series but it sounds like Osmane needed howdah

With the abus range buff, you can't go howdah anymore, they get rekt.

Since I did abus in age 3 in only one game and lost it, it really prevented him to go howdas yeah^^

[Mitoe]

Idk, I've never really seen Abus really be that good in age 3. If anything it's likely because India is just trash vs Abus. Gurkha have less range, Urumi get rekt, Zambs are not as efficient as goons or ruyters vs anything other than cavalry, no cannons, and lackluster cavalry.

[VooDoo_BoSs]

Show hidden quotes

Why should goons counter abus ?

Because, as I said, for practical reasons, hand cav doesn't really counter abus, which means that in middle/late game you can't reall counter them. If you think about it, all the other units have at least 2 effective counters, including one ranged counter, except abus.

Well no. Goons are hard countered by 0 unit of ottomans already. And only LI counters them for other civ (musk do ok, but we can't talk about a counter still).

Jans/abus counters goon.
Just test 30 vet jans/20 vet abus vs 37 vet goons, and tell me that you can't hard counter goons lol. You even have the range advantage, it's not close.
Also to be fair, musk vs goon is much better than goon vs abus.
Anyway, the point is that abus are lame, because if you don't have a good cav units (think of India, Aztecs), you just can't deal with abus.

Sure, this is true if you just face off jans / abus vs goons. The issue is that a good player doesn't do that. A good player will pick off the side of armies with the full mass of goons, hit villagers, etc. This is where otto really suffers - it has a big moving block of units that is relatively inflexible and predictable.

Additionally, abus somewhat suffer in larger fights where cav is involved. Hard to perfectly micro when number of units is >60 as abus will tend to waste shots on whatever is closest (eg: cav), while getting destroyed by any ranged infantry (ghurkas) shooting from the back as their RR is now so heavily nerfed.

Ottoman is definitely a strong civilisation, but on EP they are probably not even tier 1 anymore.

[Mitoe]

I think Otto is still a good civ on EP, but only because their tempo overshadows most of their weaknesses.