KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Sweden Hawk_Girl
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by Hawk_Girl »

in age 4 battle with full or close to full eco i dont see how india deals with pure huss abus, but yeah its about getting to that point
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by rsy »

Yeah India has a hard time vs walls and ri in late game. Yumis present similar problems as abus too
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by momuuu »

I still don't know why abus needed to get +2 range in fortress.
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

momuuu wrote:I still don't know why abus needed to get +2 range in fortress.

Yea, there's no reason to. That's another unneeded change, just keep it simple like in the RE.
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by bwinner »

Well I never ever see abus in age 3 in RE, so I guess that's a reason. Furthermore, abus have a rof nerf, so you would see them even less in age 3 on ep without this buff.
Furthermore, I still mostly make falc/culv rather than abus in age 3 in ep. I only did abus vs india bc otto has no unit to kill the siege elifent.
Otherwise abus are only better than artillery in very late game I think, so that's totally fine. And stop telling this is not a balance change to revert the range buff, this makes no sens.
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by pecelot »

the ROF nerf is pretty insignificant, I'd say
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by bwinner »

pecelot wrote:the ROF nerf is pretty insignificant, I'd say

well it's a 15% nerf on the dps of the unit. So one of the biggest nerf of a unit in ep
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by Makrokosmos12 »

I dont think ROF nerf is insignificant. There ROF was just stupid combined with the fact, that they do bombard damage. So ROF nerf was absolutely justified. And it was also justified to give them a little bit more range in age 3, because without it, they would just suck in age 3. You would constantly get outranged by skirm units and otto doesnt have another answer to skirms besides cannons. Abbus are in a good spot now.

If you would nerf them again,the only units you would see from otto would be jans, jans, jans and send cannon and mameluke shipment from time to time. How boring is that. As bwinner said.

Also KingofOsmane could have massed sowars vs abbus, instead of sending outclassed gurkhas into carded guard abbus.
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Makrokosmos12 wrote:I dont think ROF nerf is insignificant. There ROF was just stupid combined with the fact, that they do bombard damage. So ROF nerf was absolutely justified. And it was also justified to give them a little bit more range in age 3, because without it, they would just suck in age 3. You would constantly get outranged by skirm units and otto doesnt have another answer to skirms besides cannons. Abbus are in a good spot now.

If you would nerf them again,the only units you would see from otto would be jans, jans, jans and send cannon and mameluke shipment from time to time. How boring is that. As bwinner said.

Also KingofOsmane could have massed sowars vs abbus, instead of sending outclassed gurkhas into carded guard abbus.

Well the issue is that abus become op with that extra range tbh.
Also sowars is like the worst cavalry in the game, he would have lost all his sowars to jan/abus, massing gurkhas is still the best choice.
Honestly, the issue is that abus with this range buff counter every unit but melee cav, which doesn't make sense. If you look at it, all the units have 2 counters (for infantry it's anti infantry+artillery, cav gets countered by heavy infantry, and goons, artillery by cav, culvs, and even goons). And it makes no sense to have a unit which can beat everything easily but melee cav.
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by Makrokosmos12 »

I still think abbus need more range to be viable in age 3. I mean, what you gonna do as otto if your opponent goes skirm goon without abbus range. Jans, cav archers and hussars dont do much vs skirm/goon.
Main issue is, because of ottos lack in variety in their infantrie, the devs gave otto a very strong sort of infantry unit, in the artillery foundry. Abbus are a replacement for skirms, which otto needs, at the same time abbus can get out of hand very fast, because they are hard to counter.
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by bwinner »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Makrokosmos12 wrote:I dont think ROF nerf is insignificant. There ROF was just stupid combined with the fact, that they do bombard damage. So ROF nerf was absolutely justified. And it was also justified to give them a little bit more range in age 3, because without it, they would just suck in age 3. You would constantly get outranged by skirm units and otto doesnt have another answer to skirms besides cannons. Abbus are in a good spot now.

If you would nerf them again,the only units you would see from otto would be jans, jans, jans and send cannon and mameluke shipment from time to time. How boring is that. As bwinner said.

Also KingofOsmane could have massed sowars vs abbus, instead of sending outclassed gurkhas into carded guard abbus.

Well the issue is that abus become op with that extra range tbh.
Also sowars is like the worst cavalry in the game, he would have lost all his sowars to jan/abus, massing gurkhas is still the best choice.
Honestly, the issue is that abus with this range buff counter every unit but melee cav, which doesn't make sense. If you look at it, all the units have 2 counters (for infantry it's anti infantry+artillery, cav gets countered by heavy infantry, and goons, artillery by cav, culvs, and even goons). And it makes no sense to have a unit which can beat everything easily but melee cav.

It's just abus are not skirms. They are between skirms and canons which means they don't counter goons but do well vs skirms and canons. Ok it is nice vs india that has not very good cav, but for instance it's terrible vs portuguese who just win with full goons in late game.
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by VooDoo_BoSs »

momuuu wrote:
VooDoo_BoSs wrote:
Show hidden quotes


This is ridiculous. When have, in the history of AOE3, all the top players decided to conspire and collectively boycott a civ because it's noob or too easy?.

This didn't really happen. What did happen was that ESOC decided to host the first tournaments with Iro/Otto banned. This made sense at the time, because otherwise all games would involve mostly iro/otto mirrors like what happened in the PKClan tournaments. I think eventually this trickled down to casual ESO games, where more and more people started to frown upon the usage of those civs and those civs weren't relevant for competitive play (tournaments) so people might have steered away from them. The result is that we have a large player base of players that became active/good somewhere near the beginning of ESOC (unlike you and me for example) and thus haven't really picked up Otto over the course of their aoe3 career.

That's why otto is underrepresented. I don't think it's because Otto is too noob/easy but because it was actually banned for a little while in a very crucial period for the community.


Then why is Iro so common now?

Look at any top player who occasionally plays otto - you will find their winning percentage / ELO ranking will be lower with otto than other civs:


Eg: Somppu
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... m=civtable
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by WickedCossack »

Not that I'm against your argument but on the link you posted Somppus Otto win % is his 2nd highest behind India? Am I missing your point here?
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by momuuu »

VooDoo_BoSs wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

This didn't really happen. What did happen was that ESOC decided to host the first tournaments with Iro/Otto banned. This made sense at the time, because otherwise all games would involve mostly iro/otto mirrors like what happened in the PKClan tournaments. I think eventually this trickled down to casual ESO games, where more and more people started to frown upon the usage of those civs and those civs weren't relevant for competitive play (tournaments) so people might have steered away from them. The result is that we have a large player base of players that became active/good somewhere near the beginning of ESOC (unlike you and me for example) and thus haven't really picked up Otto over the course of their aoe3 career.

That's why otto is underrepresented. I don't think it's because Otto is too noob/easy but because it was actually banned for a little while in a very crucial period for the community.


Then why is Iro so common now?

Look at any top player who occasionally plays otto - you will find their winning percentage / ELO ranking will be lower with otto than other civs:


Eg: Somppu
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... m=civtable

Iro is the least played civ??
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by zoom »

momuuu wrote:I still don't know why abus needed to get +2 range in fortress.
A buff versus light cavalry makes more sense, to me, if anything. It just isn't within the scope of EP6, and hardly pressing enough to warrant an exception, though. Definitely something to consider for the next beta.
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by deleted_user0 »

please don't buff abus vs light cavalry... they're totally fucking fine. =_= the problem isn't really that abus aren't fine vs goons, it's that otto rarely has enough of them.
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Abus already counter goons lol.
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by bwinner »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Abus already counter goons lol.

Well they have a negative multiplier, so I can't call that a counter.
Then in straigt fight maybe abus win, I am not even sure, but that s irrelevant since any unit, even handcav win vs goons when there is no micro, thing is goons are much more mobile, so if you don't win hard vs them you are not a counter.
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by pecelot »

abus ignore the ranged resistance
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by Kaiserklein »

Abus dps goons better than skirms do. A skirm does 18 damage to a goon while an abus does 30, so even taking into account the ROF and cost of abus, they still deal more damage. Problem is that abus die quite quickly to goons if they get targeted, but if you can cover them (usually with jans) it doesn't matter.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by deleted_user0 »

Kaiserklein wrote:Abus dps goons better than skirms do. A skirm does 18 damage to a goon while an abus does 30, so even taking into account the ROF and cost of abus, they still deal more damage. Problem is that abus die quite quickly to goons if they get targeted, but if you can cover them (usually with jans) it doesn't matter.



Are you sure about skirs? Seems kinda low. Is it vet skir dmg?

Also, per pop, abus still do worse, and with rof nerf, theyre definitely worse than skirs but theyre indeed far from bad vs goons.
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by Kaiserklein »

Nah I was comparing colo abus to colo skirms, but anyway the ratio is the same after veterancy. And yeah I'm sure about the maths, it's even with the EP 20% goon rr. On RE colo skirms do barely more than 15 damage to goons (basically the 1.5 multiplier cancels out with the 30% rr)
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by bwinner »

Goon and abus kill each other 1 to 1 in ep (I just tested) and cost about the same (230 abus, 260 goons) while skirm fight very cost effectivly vs goons.
It's anyway 100% sure skirms are better than abus vs goons. What's the rof of a skirm btw ?
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

bwinner1 wrote:Goon and abus kill each other 1 to 1 in ep (I just tested) and cost about the same (230 abus, 260 goons) while skirm fight very cost effectivly vs goons.

Yea but as kaiser said, the issue is that now abus have more range and can't be focused because they are covered.
Also goons should counter abus, and what you're saying is that both units are as good in a 1v1 fight.
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Re: KINGofOsmane vs bwinner

Post by bwinner »

Why should goons counter abus ?
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