diarouga vs Tit

[[Armag] diarouga]

[spoiler=Result]3-1 for diarouga[/spoiler]

[[Armag] diarouga]

[spoiler=spoiler]Game 1: We both go semi ff. At one point I wasted 30 maces because I got trapped by mahouts, it costed me the game.
Game 2: I go for a TP boom on Klondike. I get a big eco advantage as he doesn't contest the TP line.
Game 3: FI vs semi ff.
Game 4: By far the closest one. semi ff war again, I wasted maces again, but I managed to come back.[/spoiler]

[[Armag] diarouga]

Lol, I didn't realise my warhut was that far from the TP line in game 2.

[deleted_user0]

Didnt see the games.

Did tit play really bad or can we now finally conclude azzy > india??? Cuz india even got buffed according to everyone, and still cant win this mu...

[[Armag] diarouga]

Didnt see the games.

Did tit play really bad or can we now finally conclude azzy > india??? Cuz india even got buffed according to everyone, and still cant win this mu...

Before playing the games I thought that azzy was definitely better than India, now I'm not that sure.
In my practice games (I might post some after the tourney), I figured out that going for a timing as Aztecs was basically a coin flip, it either works and ends the game at 9min, or India can hold with vills tanking, mm and a cav pop, and the Aztec player is lost. Thus is I think that if the Aztec player goes for a timing, the MU is even but kinda random depending on the starting crates and treasures (like with gold start, India is like 30 sec slower than with gold start while the Aztec player doesn't really care).

As a result, I decided to go for eco builds (and also because I saw that Tit went for CM in his 2 games against risi some time ago), and it worked out great in all my practice games, but not so great here against Tit. Game 1 was lost because I wasted 30 maces because I was out of position, and I overmade coyotes vs full sepoy, but still, it would have been quite close, and game 4 (I went for a 10wp ff) was very close as well although I forgot to send 600w and wasted too.

All in all, I'd say that Aztec wins if he can secure more than 3 TPs or contain in colonial (like on Florida, there's no way you can contain, you have 3 mines and 4 hunts xD, but on RE maps it's quite easy). Else, it's close.
Also if the Aztec player can FI (not sure you can against agressive semi ff, I'd need to test that), he wins quite easily, even vs India FI.

[Garja]

I love how everyone ignores my opinion when I ve played this MU 1000 times from both sides.

[deleted_user0]

That's great. We have pr 30 opinion from both sides.

[Garja]

better than ur pr25 still

[[Armag] diarouga]

I love how everyone ignores my opinion when I ve played this MU 1000 times from both sides.

What's your opinion about that?
Besides, from what I remember from the games we played in this MU, your azzy play wasn't great, agressive mace/coyo contain which works well on RE maps, but doesn't work on maps like Florida.

Anyway, if you think you know everythink about this MU, why do you only have 50% vs Tit?
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... lent=&ft=1
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... lent=&ft=1

16% vs Somppu:
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... lent=&ft=1

And barely 50% with India vs Aztecs?
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... =9&df=&dt=

[aligator92]

Didnt see the games.

Did tit play really bad or can we now finally conclude azzy > india??? Cuz india even got buffed according to everyone, and still cant win this mu...

Unforutnately Tit played very passively in Game 2, not even contesting the trade route. Then very poorly in game 3 and also wasted his chance to get stagecoach against the FF in Game 4 so I guess we cannot conclude much about the MU from the series

[Garja]

I love how everyone ignores my opinion when I ve played this MU 1000 times from both sides.

What's your opinion about that?
Besides, from what I remember from the games we played in this MU, your azzy play wasn't great, agressive mace/coyo contain which works well on RE maps, but doesn't work on maps like Florida.

I don't have one single way of playing this MU as Azzies. Besides even vs you, the first things I did was coyo start with boomy builds, like 3wp 5v 4v (a greedy adaptation to 700w 3wp 5v). I'm not a fan of an actual contain unless the map is somewhat low res or it has a good trade route (Cascade Range, Klondike, Mongolia on RE patch).

Anyway, the MU is india favored for sure on EP. The problem is that not many people play it correctly. Tit epsecially keeps making sepoy and plays in a very generic way. If you make sepoy at least do what Somppu does and go FI with a TP and GFA, so that you have potential behind a passive turtle.
Sepoy-gurka can still work but you need great mass and it tends to work more from fortress and on when upgrades stack on already great base stats and the advantages of having premium units become more evident. For example vs a reasonable amount of gurka and sepoy, let's say 20 and 30, you need about 60 maces which hardly anyone produces (especially since it exceeds the amount you can have in one group). Mace and eagles surprisingly don't beat it because eagles don't really counter any of the 2 and are more expensive than sepoy. Only after all ups eagles can start powerplaying it, even tho trades are still not going to be very efficient.

Talking strictly about strats and BOs, India just wants to drag the game and outscale, without being too behind in tempo otherwise Aztec can exploit it by fertility dancing to 99 villagers and then India doesn't really outscale anymore.
Because of this Aztecs have to do something to either win fast or gain enough momentum to translate in a strong timing in fortress (when they can compete in units power) or outscale. They have several options:
1) mace pike rush
2) coyo mace rush/timing
3) generic coyo/etc. contain
4) more refined coyo contain (TP, water)
5) coyo start into semi
6) greedy water play
7) WP boom (colonial)
8) WP boom (fortress)
9) WP boom (industrial)

1) Mace pike rush isn't supposed to work. It can work, but it shouldn't. If you absolutely demolished India in age1 there is actually a decent chance that it will work, but that doesn't happen often. Even if you kill the agra generally you lost enough stuff in the process that India will just rebuild the rax and then hold with mm, stuff from consulate, unit cards, etc. Basically textbook India defensive stuff. It has better chance of working vs sepoy starter of course. That's why you make gurkha.

2) Coyo rush/timing is the alternative to mace/pike rush. Basically since the Indian player is going to make pure gurka early on you try to mass the counter to it relying on 10+9 maces to kill the anticav and other junk units. Since is very commital all India has to do is hold and with consulate stuff and upgraded vills that's entirely possible and actually relatively easy on EP. Even if India loses vills in the process they will just outscale because they get way better eco and they are assured constant vill production with wood trickles. Once they have enough zambs they can start poking out and then generally after camel attack they can push out. Once they get desert terror card there is nothing Azzies can do, even with 10wp+3v on firepit.

3) Generic coyo contain used to work, but now players got a bit better with India. Not only they understand that sepoy are useless so they skip them entirely but also they adapt by using more vills on the agra (btw always use 4 vs Azzies) and get more greedy with market ups if the Azzy player isn't rushing. This results in the contain to fail before India is out of resources.

4) Refined coyo play with TP or water is the natural consequence of previous strats not working anymore. TPs are also super popular on EP so it only makes sense to take them. With TP you most likely renunce completely to succeed at any early coyo raid (even with the "safe" build you will only have 5 coyotes for a while if you want to stagecoach asap) but you will get stronger follow up.
700w 600w 5v 4v is in fact excellent eco and unit spam at the same time. Too bad India units just trolls Azzies one anyway so it's hard to prove your superior mass any useful. Also India eco is about as good as Azzies TPed eco.
Water+coyo isn't exactly a contain but the idea is more or less the same, minus map control by default.
These strats mostly don't work because of how better India units are in midgame. After camel attack there is simply no way to win a battle vs India gurka+camel. Coyote simply don't connect well enough and with only 10% rr they die like flies not only to zambs but even gurka. Maces struggle to land any shot on zambs because of setup animation and zambs mobility. Even when they do, zambs still don't die because maces attack is split in 2 (rof 1.5) and because of their 30% rr. Even gurka are hard to reach because of their superior range and maces setup animation once again. The only chance is to do some surprise flank but it really doesn't work in practice. Sommppu even tried with stealth coyote vs me and I could still kite my way out every time even when coyote actually connected. On top of the kiting, sowars are a pain in the ass for Azzies. Despite the low hp they have insane anti RI attack and they 2 hit kill maces. Also because of the outstanding 7.50 speed they just go back and forth seemlessy and puma are going to drop very quickly trying to protect maces.
Then again, if the India player doesn't know how to play and doesn't setup for this combo Azzies can totally win. In fact this is probably the most practical strat for Azzies vs India.

5) Coyote semi FF tries to avoid the previous situation where Azzies units become hopeless. The idea is to use the tempo advantage to age up before it is too late. In fortress you unlock eagles (great unit and no shitty pikes anymore), get elite ups (25% for TWC civs) and also unlock extra TCs for potential 3TC fertility dance boom. Also you finally have access to unit ups and if the game gets to farms/plants also to some proper eco up (wood up is good for colo play, same for food up if map has lot of berries).
I used to do this a lot in many fashions. With or without TP (see my game vs Boneng in old ESOC tourney), with 4wp (see again my old strat 3wp 5v 4v), etc.
However, there are multiple problems I encountered with this over time.
First of all India can just time at about 10 min when they get one or two camel ups. Diarouga used to do this vs me when he was clueless pr30ish and it actually works. Even if you reach fortress and drop the 2 noble huts you still have hard time holding the pressure, despite multiple units shipments. It can ocasionally hold vs this if the pathing sucks for India units but it's rare.
Second, India can just follow up and unless some huge tempo disavantage it will retain the eco advantage and while being on par with unit power (India units are amazing too). H2O used to do that and also iamturk does this. Even in age3 and with 10wp it's extremely frustrating for maces to compete vs upped gurka.
Third, India can even go IV sneakily and then win with urumi or even just honored gurka+support units. India have easier time than Azzies going IV in this kind of game (Azzies can have good eco but you will always have some vills on wood so you're not macroed to collect for industrial age up). Also India has more convenient IV unit which is urumi (which also counters skull knights).

6) Greedy water play is, again, the logical adaptation to previous strat not working. Basically the idea is to exasperate the tempo advantage by getting huge eco. If you get double the eco India has then you can maybe afford to take bad trades every time and still win, especially from fortress and on when unit trades are not so terrible anymore. Also because you're playing passively you are likely to fight near your base so will have faster reinforcements and can setup some flank (which helps coyote connecting, as well as maximing maces output who can stand still and shoot without having to chase kiting units).
Azzies can water boom with either the WH age up and schooners (very similar to any other water boom) or with fast age and then using wood crates to fuel the boat spam. An even greedier version of this is 3wp 700w 600w 2WH 5v etc with the idea of first getting 10WP then dropping 2 docks with 700w and then spamming boats and vills with fertility while delaying the WH till the 2WH card (can hold pressure because of 10wp spamming warriors and boats gathering while vills are idle).
This strat can work if India doesn't adapt. It is somewhat easier to hold a timing (10wp+multiple WH+everything close together because it's essentially a turtle stuff), and also getting out aged (III vs IV) isn't that bad because you have infinite eco to hold urumi spam (plus again defender advantage).
However, if India blindly ages to fortress you might not be hold a timing with disciplined units. Also if India counters water you might get in trouble. Azzies water is good yes, but you still need resources and card upgrades to prove that canoes are better.
All in all this is the only strat in which you can say Azzies have an advantage, simply because it is up to India to do something or Azzies outscale.

7) WP boom into colonial war is not very different from any refined coyo play already mentioned. The difference is that you get stronger units earlier but I'm afraid that's not enough to force the win. Once India gets enough upped camels out there is no chance. Before that it's hard to win because Azzies skip unit production to get 10WP out.
8) WP boom semi FF is ok. It should hold any India pressure in a way or the other (rush, delayed timing, sepoy play, gurka+camels play, etc.). The problem is that it is a huge tell for India to age up itself and then it's again the same story. I would rather be in this situation than most of previous mentioned but there is also the chance that India will semi FF while doing minimal push, screwing Azzies strat just enough to have an advantage in the fortress age (e.g. force a misplace of the 2 noble huts or interrupt XP dance for a while).
9) WP boom into FI is just too trolly imo. Azzies should lose even to just a fortress timing if the FI is blind. But the real problem is when India also FI, and then sepoy+urumi+other units is better than anything azzies can get out in the same time frame with a FI strat. Basically a well sized India IV army requires 2 waves of Azzy units and after losing the first battle you just don't have time to get the 2nd wave out before India walks in your base and does decisive damage.

Couple additional notes:
- Aztec WC card can help in age3 to snare gurka, tank some hits and half damage them. It also screw oppnent unit pathing meaning you often need less eagles to do the same anticav job. This means you can focus more on a mace/coyo combo which is better suited to counter typical gurka+camels. It has potential but it can't do miracles, and it is still one card to spend just on that.
- Howdah are not an easy client for Azzies. Despite having eagles and cost efficient RI Aztec struggle a bit vs howdah. The sheer amount of HP/attack, combined with 30% and 16 range make them hard to kill. Also if maces or eagles chase them too much they can turn into meelee and then it's 30 attack with area1 so something like mahouts but without the opportunity for eagles to counter them. Mixed with monks they are even more annoying since maces get a penalty vs them and eagles don't counter them either.

Anyway, if you think you know everythink about this MU, why do you only have 50% vs Tit?
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... lent=&ft=1
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... lent=&ft=1

16% vs Somppu:
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... lent=&ft=1

And barely 50% with India vs Aztecs?
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... =9&df=&dt=

First of all I don't think win% mean anything. I never have great win rates because I don't try hard enough anymore to have it. I just jump from civ to civ often testing new stuff, rated. And in general there isn't necessarily a strong correlation between results and what you know about a MU.
Second, why didn't you pick also the games on my main account where I have 72% win rate in Aztecs vs India?
Third, vs Tit there is a point where I just started to fuck up and don't care anymore since every single game was laggy. If you look at old games I have 100% win rate vs him (small sample but still). And it was laggy even there btw. Just I at least cared.
Fourth, 16% vs Somppu is because India is just better on EP, as I said. Just check the reverse (me India) I have 2 wins out of 3 and I'm pretty sure the loss was actually a win but it was reported as a loss (net issue or something).
Btw first game on Arkansas I rushed, I was winning then overextended and throw. I corrected it in the second game. Other games were pretty much all FI vs FI "tests" and it clearly doesn't work.
Fifth, all those games from RE patch are actually me trying 1010 karni mata vs mostly people who rush (nerpio, Blucandle). If you look at recent games where I went agra I won most of them (with the one vs Soldier where I won despite he busted my blind semi with a timing).

[Challe]

Jesus christ Garja

[Kaiserklein]

Why repeat His name in the same sentence

[Mitoe]

I just don't understand why everyone insists on making nothing but Sepoy vs everything as India. Especially against Aztec, where Gurkha are arguably your biggest advantage.

Maybe it's just because it's easier to control and harder to micro against at the same time.

[Hazza54321]

easy way to win

[Kaiserklein]

I just don't understand why everyone insists on making nothing but Sepoy vs everything as India. Especially against Aztec, where Gurkha are arguably your biggest advantage.

Maybe it's just because it's easier to control and harder to micro against at the same time.

Yeah it's just typical low skill stuff, super easy to do and super hard to play against. It's not actually strong but it's really annoying, just like sioux going full br or otto going jan rush

[Aizamk]

ur lucky he didn't go nootka

[SoldieR]

There's no room for adaptive play in this game,silly!

[dansil92]

In this matchup, wouldn't it be ideal to go full sowar- zamburak? Ship your camel attack right away after trickle, desert terror, martial arts card, draw out some colonial play rather than just age blindly. Without artillery worth using i dont see much point aging against Aztec?

[[Armag] diarouga]

I just don't understand why everyone insists on making nothing but Sepoy vs everything as India. Especially against Aztec, where Gurkha are arguably your biggest advantage.

Maybe it's just because it's easier to control and harder to micro against at the same time.

Game 1 would have been much easier if he went for gurkhas lol. Coyotes were half of my army and I wasted everything against sepoys.
Honestly, even in game 4, I struggled a lot against sepoys because sepoys are so good.

[Mitoe]

They're good but not that good. Especially not vs Aztec. Gurkha/Zamb with the camel cards is just a superior unit composition to Urumi/Sepoy or Mahout/Sepoy vs Aztec IMO. Mace just do too well vs heavy infantry.

For comparison Macehualtin do 32 damage to heavy infantry ever 3 seconds compared to 30 damage to HI every 3 seconds from a veteran skirmisher--and for a cheaper price to boot. In age 3 this goes up to 40 damage, which is almost equivalent to a skirmisher with Counter-Infantry Rifling. Top this off with the fact that Mace are arguably better at kiting heavy infantry than skirmishers thanks to their extra 0.5 speed and it just doesn't make sense to make Sepoy against them.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I love how everyone ignores my opinion when I ve played this MU 1000 times from both sides.

What's your opinion about that?
Besides, from what I remember from the games we played in this MU, your azzy play wasn't great, agressive mace/coyo contain which works well on RE maps, but doesn't work on maps like Florida.

I don't have one single way of playing this MU as Azzies. Besides even vs you, the first things I did was coyo start with boomy builds, like 3wp 5v 4v (a greedy adaptation to 700w 3wp 5v). I'm not a fan of an actualcontain unless the map is somewhat low res or it has a good trade route (Cascade Range, Klondike, Mongolia on RE patch).

Cascade range?

Anyway, the MU is india favored for sure on EP. The problem is that not many people play it correctly. Tit epsecially keeps making sepoy and plays in a very generic way. If you make sepoy at least do what Somppu does and go FI with a TP and GFA, so that you have potential behind a passive turtle.

Well if you do that against Aztecs you're going to get rekt by a rush since you don't have the range advantage with sepoys. Imo if you go for a sepoy start, you have to play safe, else you just can't hold a mace rush.

Sepoy-gurka can still work but you need great mass and it tends to work more from fortress and on when upgrades stack on already great base stats and the advantages of having premium units become more evident. For example vs a reasonable amount of gurka and sepoy, let's say 20 and 30, you need about 60 maces which hardly anyone produces (especially since it exceeds the amount you can have in one group). Mace and eagles surprisingly don't beat it because eagles don't really counter any of the 2 and are more expensive than sepoy. Only after all ups eagles can start powerplaying it, even tho trades are still not going to be very efficient.

Talking strictly about strats and BOs, India just wants to drag the game and outscale, without being too behind in tempo otherwise Aztec can exploit it by fertility dancing to 99 villagers and then India doesn't really outscale anymore.
Because of this Aztecs have to do something to either win fast or gain enough momentum to translate in a strong timing in fortress (when they can compete in units power) or outscale. They have several options:
1) mace pike rush

Doesn't work because India can hold with gurkha+mm

2) coyo mace rush/timing
3) generic coyo/etc. contain
4) more refined coyo contain (TP, water)
5) coyo start into semi
6) greedy water play

It doesn't work, because India can just contest the water, and it means that you'll have to produce a lot of canoes. Even if you win the water fight at some point, your eco will be so bad that India can just win anyway.

7) WP boom (colonial)
8) WP boom (fortress)
9) WP boom (industrial)

Thus to me, you have 7 available options.

1) Mace pike rush isn't supposed to work. It can work, but it shouldn't. If you absolutely demolished India in age1 there is actually a decent chance that it will work, but that doesn't happen often. Even if you kill the agra generally you lost enough stuff in the process that India will just rebuild the rax and then hold with mm, stuff from consulate, unit cards, etc. Basically textbook India defensive stuff. It has better chance of working vs sepoy starter of course. That's why you make gurkha.

2) Coyo rush/timing is the alternative to mace/pike rush. Basically since the Indian player is going to make pure gurka early on you try to mass the counter to it relying on 10+9 maces to kill the anticav and other junk units. Since is very commital all India has to do is hold and with consulate stuff and upgraded vills that's entirely possible and actually relatively easy on EP. Even if India loses vills in the process they will just outscale because they get way better eco and they are assured constant vill production with wood trickles. Once they have enough zambs they can start poking out and then generally after camel attack they can push out. Once they get desert terror card there is nothing Azzies can do, even with 10wp+3v on firepit.

Not sure I agree with that. mace/coyote timing is extremly scary, and as I said in my previous post, I think that it's a coin flip, if India holds you're fucked, but you can definitely win the game with such a timing.
That's the most standard way to play the MU, and all the India players who played this MU (even H2O) struggle a lot against this timing, so I wouldn't say that India is favoured against that.

3) Generic coyo contain used to work, but now players got a bit better with India. Not only they understand that sepoy are useless so they skip them entirely but also get they adapt by using more vills on the agra (btw always use 4 vs Azzies) and get more greedy with market ups if the Azzy player isn't rushing. This results in the contain to fail before India is out of resources.

Yea, always use 4 vills vs Aztecs. However, I disagree with that, sepoys are useless vs Aztecs. I think that you need both sepoys (to block) and zams (to dps). Furthermore, sepoys cost less coin, which means that you'll run out of coin later, which is a great thing against contain play.
I didn't test age 2 contain in my practice game, but I agree that it probably fails. India is just going to rape with upgraded camels, and you can turtle forever on maps like Florida, probably even age lol.

4) Refined coyo play with TP or water is the natural consequence of previous strats not working anymore. TPs are also super popular on EP so it only makes sense to take them. With TP you most likely renunce completely to succeed at any early coyo raid (even with the "safe" build you will only have 5 coyotes for a while if you want to stagecoach asap) but you will get stronger follow up.
700w 600w 5v 4v is in fact excellent eco and unit spam at the same time. Too bad India units just trolls Azzies one anyway so it's hard to prove your superior mass any useful. Also India eco is about as good as Azzies TPed eco.

4vills lol. Tbh 3wp is better, but whatever. You can age or contain with the TP contain, so India units being better in late age 2 doesn't really matter.

Water+coyo isn't exactly a contain but the idea is more or less the same, minus map control by default.
These strats mostly don't work because of how better India units are in midgame. After camel attack there is simply no way to win a battle vs India gurka+camel. Coyote simply don't connect well enough and with only 10% rr they die like flies not only to zambs but even gurka. Maces struggle to land any shot on zambs because of setup animation and zambs mobility. Even when they do, zambs still don't die because maces attack is split in 2 (rof 1.5) and because of their 30% rr. Even gurka are hard to reach because of their superior range and maces setup animation once again. The only chance is to do some surprise flank but it really doesn't work in practice. Sommppu even tried with stealth coyote vs me and I could still kite my way out every time even when coyote actually connected. On top of the kiting, sowars are a pain in the ass for Azzies. Despite the low hp they have insane anti RI attack and they 2 hit kill maces. Also because of the outstanding 7.50 speed they just go back and forth seemlessy and puma are going to drop very quickly trying to protect maces.
Then again, if the India player doesn't know how to play and doesn't setup for this combo Azzies can totally win. In fact this is probably the most practical strat for Azzies vs India.

You forgot to mention that you can take the TP line and then age, which solves that late age 2 problem. Sowars become totally useless when you get eagles out, which also means no units to block the coyotes, who will then rape the gurkha mass.

5) Coyote semi FF tries to avoid the previous situation where Azzies units become hopeless. The idea is to use the tempo advantage to age up before it is too late. In fortress you unlock eagles (great unit and no shitty pikes anymore), get elite ups (25% for TWC civs) and also unlock extra TCs for potential 3TC fertility dance boom.

3 TC fertilicy boom lol.

Also you finally have access to unit ups and if the game gets to farms/plants also to some proper eco up (wood up is good for colo play, same for food up if map has lot of berries).
I used to do this a lot in many fasions. With or without TP (see my game vs Boneng in old ESOC tourney), with 4wp (see again my old strat 3wp 5v 4v), etc.
However, there are multiple problems I encountered with this over time.
First of all India can just time at about 10 min when they get one or two camel ups. Diarouga used to do this vs me when he was clueless pr30ish and it actually works.

Yea, lol, but if you defend properly there's no way you lose to a timing imo, especially vs a clueless pr30.

Even if you reach fortress and drop the 2 noble huts you still have hard time holding the pressure, despite multiple units shipments. It can ocasionally hold vs this if the pathing sucks for India units but it's rare.

Here is your mistake: the 2 noble huts. Just age with the WC and the problem is solved, you can just snare forever and tank a huge amount of damage. In my practice games I managed to hold these timings quite easily.

Second, India can just follow up and unless some huge tempo disavantage it will retain the eco advantage and while being on par with unit power (India units are amazing too). H2O used to do that and also iamturk does this. Even in age3 and with 10wp it's extremely frustrating for maces to compete vs upped gurka.

Again, unless you have godrouga snaring all the gurkhas and instantly respawning .

Third, India can even go IV sneakily and then win with urumi or even just honored gurka+support units.

Aztec FI>India FI, so if India can age to IV, Aztec also can. Of course it can be a great cheese, but I guess Aztec could also cheese that way.

India have easier time than Azzies going IV in this kind of game (Azzies can have good eco but you will always have some vills on wood so you're not macroed to collect for industrial age up).

Unless you put less vills on wood and send 800c I guess.

Also India has more convenient IV unit which is urumi (which also counters skull knights).

Who take ages to kill the skull knights, who get snared by the rouga explorer in age 4, and die in one hit to 40 age 4 maces.

6) Greedy water play is, again, the logical adaptation to previous strat not working. Basically the idea is to exasperate the tempo advantage by getting huge eco. If you get double the eco India has then you can maybe afford to take bad trades every time and still win, especially from fortress and on when unit trades are not so terrible anymore. Also because you're playing passively you are likely to fight near your base so will have faster reinforcements and can setup some flank (which helps coyote connecting, as well as maximing maces output who can stand still and shoot without having to chase kiting units).
Azzies can water boom with either the WH age up and schooners (very similar to any other water boom) or with fast age and then using wood crates to fuel the boat spam. An even greedier version of this is 3wp 700w 600w 2WH 5v etc with the idea of first getting 10WP then dropping 2 docks with 700w and then spamming boats and vills with fertility while delaying the WH till the 2WH card (can hold pressure because of 10wp spamming warriors and boats gathering while vills are idle).

Interesting build. It kinda sucks though because you don't have the fast age up.

This strat can work if India doesn't adapt. It is somewhat easier to hold a timing (10wp+multiple WH+everything close together because it's essentially a turtle stuff), and also getting out aged (III vs IV) isn't that bad because you have infinite eco to hold urumi spam (plus again defender advantage).
However, if India blindly ages to fortress you might not be hold a timing with disciplined units. Also if India counters water you might get in trouble. Azzies water is good yes, but you still need resources and card upgrades to make prove that canoes are better.
All in all this is the only strat in which you can say Azzies have an advantage, simply because it is up to India to do something or Azzies outscale.

Except you get rekt if the India guy goes for some 4 caravels push, because you'll have to make a lot of canoes (something like 15 I guess), which means -15 boats and thus less eco.

7) WP boom into colonial war is not very different from any refined coyo play already mentioned. The difference is that you get stronger units earlier but I'm afraid that's not enough to force the win. Once India gets enough upped camels out there is no chance. Beofre that it's hard to win because Azzies skip unit production to get 10WP out.

Yea, this one doesn't really work, although you can get some scary timings. Still, I'd say that the 700w/600w/10maces/9maces timing is stronger.

8) WP boom semi FF is ok. It should hold any India pressure in a way or the other (rush, delayed timing, sepoy play, gurka+camels play, etc.). The problem is that it is a huge tell for India to age up itself and then it's again the same story. I would rather be in this situation than most of previous mentioned but there is also the chance that India will semi FF while doing minimal push, screwing Azzies strat just enough to have an advantage in the fortress age (e.g. force a misplace of the 2 noble huts or interrupt XP dance for a while).

Misplace of the 2 noble huts, you know nothing...

9) WP boom into FI is just too trolly imo. Azzies should lose even to just a fortress timing if the FI is blind.

No, you hold a fortress timing. You've just always underestimated the aztec FI, it's one of the scariest builds in the game. The only way to stop it is to pressure in age 2, in age 3 it's already too late.

But the real problem is when India also FI, and then sepoy+urumi+other units is better than anything azzies can get out in the same time frame with a FI strat. Basically a well sized India IV army requires 2 waves of Azzy units and after losing the first battle you just don't have time to get the 2nd wave out before India walks in your base and does decisive damage.

Nope, Aztec FI>India FI.

Couple additional notes:
- Aztec WC card can help in age3 to snare gurka, tank some hits and half damage them. It also screw oppnent unit pathing meaning you often need less eagles to do the same anticav job. This means you can focus more on a mace/coyo combo which is better suited to counter typical gurka+camels. It has potential but it can't do miracles, and it is still one card to spend just on that.

"It can't do miracles" lol. Sending this card is totally worth it, and tbh the way I use the WC is what makes the difference between your ff and mine. Mine is just a lot stronger thanks to that.

- Howdah are not an easy client for Azzies. Despite having eagles and cost efficient RI Aztec struggle a bit vs howdah. The sheer amount of HP/attack, combined with 30% and 16 range make them hard to kill. Also if maces or eagles chase them too much they can turn into meelee and then it's 30 attakc with area1 so something like mahouts but without the opportunity for eagles to counter them. Mixed with monks they are even more annoying since maces get a penalty vs them and eagles don't counter them either.

True, howdahs are hard to deal with, but again, you just need to send Ussain Bolt and snare them (howdahs take ages to kill him by the way), and then kill them with maces and eagles

Anyway, if you think you know everythink about this MU, why do you only have 50% vs Tit?
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... lent=&ft=1
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... lent=&ft=1

16% vs Somppu:
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... lent=&ft=1

And barely 50% with India vs Aztecs?
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/rating2/pla ... =9&df=&dt=

First of all I don't think win% mean anything. I never have great win rates because I don't try hard enough anymore to have it. I just jump from civ to civ often testing new stuff, rated. And in general there isn't necessarily a strong correlation between results and what you know about a MU.

What?

Second, why didn't you pick also the games on my main account where I have 72% win rate in Aztecs vs India?

Because it's on the RE vs noobs, and I think that we all agree to say that it's Aztec favoured on low resource maps?

Third, vs Tit there is a point where I just started to fuck up and don't care anymore since every single game was laggy. If you look at old games I have 100% win rate vs him (small sample but still). And it was laggy even there btw. Just I at least cared.
Fourth, 16% vs Somppu is because India is just better on EP, as I said. Just check the reverse (me India) I have 2 wins out of 3 and I'm pretty sure the loss was actually a win but it was reported as a loss (net issue or something).

Well, I'd win with Aztecs vs Somppu playing India, so can we conclude that I'm better in this MU?

Btw first game on Arkansas I rushed, I was winning then overextended and throw. I corrected in the second game. Other games were pretty much all FI vs FI "test" and it clearly doesn't work.

It does.

Fifth, all those games from RE patch are actually me trying 1010 karni mata vs mostly people who rush (nerpio, Blucandle). If you look at recent games where I went agra i won most of them (with the one vs Soldier where I won despite he busted my blind semi with a timing).

[Veni_Vidi_Vici_W]

I just don't understand why everyone insists on making nothing but Sepoy vs everything as India. Especially against Aztec, where Gurkha are arguably your biggest advantage.

Maybe it's just because it's easier to control and harder to micro against at the same time.

Because it is just way easier to a-move your sepoy mass, perhaps with some urumi or mahout, rather than play a real game where it is about positioning, using (microing) your ghurka range and mixing a proper unit composition. And it works in a lot of cases vs many (not too good) players. You even see Diarouga struggling against the sepoys, while he has the counter unit (are sepoys too good/is India too easily able to mass them?)

How else you think he got his rank? By properly mixing a well-rounded unit composition? By microing more than just a-move?

[deleted_user]

I've never played India once ever except when before xp mod was a thing and maybe two times in RE 3v3s at 3 am.

What I'm saying is I'm a top player who uses top game mechanics likes how top players are supposed to use game mechanics and it doesn't matter if I lose.