diarouga vs snowww

Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by Hazza54321 »

i just went too greedy and i played way too passive to delay ur timing, coulve made more maces rather than coy after scouting rax and kept poking for example
User avatar
Canada dansil92
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2231
Joined: Nov 3, 2018
ESO: dansil92

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by dansil92 »

Maybe its just me but i always find the reason this matchup is so tough is because longbows counter eagle runners so much harder than skirms do. Once knight combat and the range cards are in and you have a 10 warrior priest attack dance, eagle runners can easily beat an equal number of skirms, but that is never true with longbows. They do 2x damage but that is way more than vs heavy infantry so when you factor in the higher base damage, and in the case of yeoman- insane range advantage, they out dps erks and that is not something many units can do. and when you factor in the massive eco differences, access to artillery, etc. I really think the game is very british favoured.
Image
User avatar
Holy See Imperial Noob
Lancer
Posts: 958
Joined: Feb 29, 2016
Location: Well hello DEre

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by Imperial Noob »

Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:Diarouga, if anything, that argument of your game vs kynesie just shows walls (at least with current stats/costs) are completely changing the game in a way they are not supposed to, especially with some people abusing it as much as possible

Sadly, this game is getting further from a real strategy game as people just wall everything like its an nr10 or w.e other game where you just sit back and do nothing. Unlike a real rts game, where you have to fight for the map and resources, think about positioning of units and groups instead of sitting between a wall and 2 buildings, or where you have to actually micro your units instead of just watching your units behind a wall while eating a snack.

Perhaps in a way to balance the game and civs, the EP maps just have too many resources too close to the base, allowing similar defensive strats in a lot of cases, which otherwise shouldnt work or at least not that easily.


I remember the matches several years back, when I thought that walls, outposts and booming are completely useless in this game, because enemies are going to kill all and force vills to the TC every game. The only existing playstyle was bullying. Now we see more defensive play, building placement, water play, sieging, city unit positioning and more games reaching industrial, while most games still are full of battles, army races to a scouted economic spot, raids etc. The state of the game when industrial (upper 40% of possible ages) was hardly ever reached, was imho retarded.
User avatar
United States of America Cometk
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7257
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
Location: California

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by Cometk »

Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:Sadly, this game is getting further from a real strategy game as people just wall everything like its an nr10 or w.e other game where you just sit back and do nothing. Unlike a real rts game, where you have to fight for the map and resources, think about positioning of units and groups instead of sitting between a wall and 2 buildings, or where you have to actually micro your units instead of just watching your units behind a wall while eating a snack.

have you forgotten about aoe2?
Image
User avatar
Canada dansil92
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2231
Joined: Nov 3, 2018
ESO: dansil92

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by dansil92 »

Cometk wrote:
Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:Sadly, this game is getting further from a real strategy game as people just wall everything like its an nr10 or w.e other game where you just sit back and do nothing. Unlike a real rts game, where you have to fight for the map and resources, think about positioning of units and groups instead of sitting between a wall and 2 buildings, or where you have to actually micro your units instead of just watching your units behind a wall while eating a snack.

have you forgotten about aoe2?


Walls/castles were nearly invincible had to make like 1000 farms and could legitimately win by pure turtle or tower rushing and then using priests to steal an opponents tech advantage? Yup definitely more interesting than boomy Fast Industrial... :hmm:
Image
User avatar
Australia VooDoo_BoSs
Dragoon
Posts: 254
Joined: Jul 7, 2016
ESO: VooDoo_BoSs
Location: Australia

Re: diarouga vs snowww

  • Quote

Post by VooDoo_BoSs »

Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:Diarouga, if anything, that argument of your game vs kynesie just shows walls (at least with current stats/costs) are completely changing the game in a way they are not supposed to, especially with some people abusing it as much as possible ^^ I havent seen the game or the possible mistakes you did, but you are the better player of the two (decision making, bo, micro, macro) and I think this matchup is only sightly brit favored, not by much.

Hazza is good, although a little less 1/1 experienced he is similar in overall skill. Ofc brit has a good mid-game timing and most importantly an easier eco behind it and easier-to-micro unit composition. Doesnt make it a free win though.

Sadly, this game is getting further from a real strategy game as people just wall everything like its an nr10 or w.e other game where you just sit back and do nothing. Unlike a real rts game, where you have to fight for the map and resources, think about positioning of units and groups instead of sitting between a wall and 2 buildings, or where you have to actually micro your units instead of just watching your units behind a wall while eating a snack.

Perhaps in a way to balance the game and civs, the EP maps just have too many resources too close to the base, allowing similar defensive strats in a lot of cases, which otherwise shouldnt work or at least not that easily.


The walling game in question was more lost by snow rather than one by diarouga.

Snow went imperial while almost all of his units were still at age 3. For the first 2 minutes of imperial he was fighting the Aztec army with veteran musk, lbow, and huss. He never got any Age 5 upgrade of any kind - and likely would have won if he stayed Age 4 a bit longer, continued to apply pressure with Age 4 units rather than age 3 units, and then aged to imperial later.

Somppu's games vs Kynesie's turtles weren't even close, showing that the strategy is not an instant-win.

At the end of the day, very few people actually play with the turtle style effectively. I don't see big wall comments talking about how every game these days seems to be a semi-FF, but god-forbid a turtle strategy wins every now and then.

I would strongly encourage the EP balance team not to make balance changes based on the odd game. This type of play is rarely viable which is why so few players are able to execute it successfully. If it truly was broken, you would see every player taking every opportunity to do a water turtle - but this simply does not happen.

I would much rather watch interesting games where players think through strategies (eg: somppu's games vs Kynesie) - rather than the same style of games that 99% of tourney games seem to be - Aggressive colonial or semi-FF where the game is pretty much over after the first fight and no real decision-making happens from either player.
User avatar
Netherlands edeholland
ESOC Community Team
Donator 01
Posts: 5033
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: edeholland
GameRanger ID: 4053888
Clan: ESOC

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by edeholland »

Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:Sadly, this game is getting further from a real strategy game as people just wall everything like its an nr10 or w.e other game where you just sit back and do nothing. Unlike a real rts game, where you have to fight for the map and resources, think about positioning of units and groups instead of sitting between a wall and 2 buildings, or where you have to actually micro your units instead of just watching your units behind a wall while eating a snack.
You should watch Sompu vs Kynesie. What happens in game 2 will blow your mind!
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:Diarouga, if anything, that argument of your game vs kynesie just shows walls (at least with current stats/costs) are completely changing the game in a way they are not supposed to, especially with some people abusing it as much as possible ^^ I havent seen the game or the possible mistakes you did, but you are the better player of the two (decision making, bo, micro, macro) and I think this matchup is only sightly brit favored, not by much.



Hazza is good, although a little less 1/1 experienced he is similar in overall skill. Ofc brit has a good mid-game timing and most importantly an easier eco behind it and easier-to-micro unit composition. Doesnt make it a free win though.

Sadly, this game is getting further from a real strategy game as people just wall everything like its an nr10 or w.e other game where you just sit back and do nothing. Unlike a real rts game, where you have to fight for the map and resources, think about positioning of units and groups instead of sitting between a wall and 2 buildings, or where you have to actually micro your units instead of just watching your units behind a wall while eating a snack.

Perhaps in a way to balance the game and civs, the EP maps just have too many resources too close to the base, allowing similar defensive strats in a lot of cases, which otherwise shouldnt work or at least not that easily.

Well, walls are part of the game whether you like it or not. So if Brit wins that MU hard by walling, then it's Brit favoured. Anyway, you don't even need to wall to win.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:EP maps do have too many resources. I was watching some of my old recs of this MU on the RE patch and the difference in resource standards it's hilarious.

On RE maps the MU is of course different because you can contain and Brit has a harder time winning with a timing.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Hazza54321 wrote:i just went too greedy and i played way too passive to delay ur timing, coulve made more maces rather than coy after scouting rax and kept poking for example

It wasn't really too greedy. Like 3wp/700w/5v is definitely a good build order to hold that kind of timing, and the point is that you can't poke because I have the range advantage thanks to lb.
User avatar
France Guigs
Tournament Admin
Posts: 941
Joined: Jan 22, 2017
ESO: Guigs
Location: France

Re: diarouga vs snowww

  • Quote

Post by Guigs »

Garja wrote:EP maps do have too many resources. I was watching some of my old recs of this MU on the RE patch and the difference in resource standards it's hilarious.


I wonder who makes the maps :hmm:
Image

Image
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Well, walls are part of the game whether you like it or not. So if Brit wins that MU hard by walling, then it's Brit favoured. Anyway, you don't even need to wall to win.

They dont.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: diarouga vs snowww

  • Quote

Post by Garja »

Lecastete wrote:
Garja wrote:EP maps do have too many resources. I was watching some of my old recs of this MU on the RE patch and the difference in resource standards it's hilarious.


I wonder who makes the maps :hmm:

Ok I'll remove all 3rd hunts from maps for the next patch. :chinese:
Image Image Image
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: diarouga vs snowww

  • Quote

Post by gibson »

I'd like that, the reason I like qs instead of ep 1v1 is cause I don't like masterbating in base with 3 hunts and 2 mines every game
Netherlands Veni_Vidi_Vici_W
Lancer
Posts: 632
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
ESO: ramex19

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by Veni_Vidi_Vici_W »

@imperial_noob, I am all for different and new strategies.
"while most games still are full of battles" > isnt the case in such games, and wont be if many are going to play like that. Tbh idk if not achieving 4th age often is an issue. First of all, you got 25 cards, so you cant even have many cards in age4, perhaps this was considered during the creation of the game. Secondly, a good rts game imo is about the things ive mentioned before (map, micro, etc). Which, mostly the map control aspect, makes it logical to be over before a long 4th age game. Sc2 doesnt often reach full battlecruiser etc either, just sometimes.

@Cometk, i know aoe2 has a lot of walling yes. Im not that familar with all the game details, but i believe walls are less of an issue there since you can take them down easier? Its just a TEMPORARY delay/re-guiding, rather than something you can hide behind for long, for a very low relative cost. Also in aoe2 you have 4 resources and overall its further away from your main. You cant sit on 1x1cm terrain like in aoe3 with TCs. Making walls less of an isssue also, since you cant defend every side easily since you have to cover more.

@VooDoo_BoSs, I have seen the games. I know Erik didnt play good, bad macro, late ups etc. Doesnt change my point though.
"Werent even close" is not how i would describe sompu vs kynesie, but i understand you would like to exaggerate here. First of all, Kynesie is just a fine player, nothing op. So imagine someone with better skills abusing these things. Compare for example how Knush micros his canons as port and how Kynesie does it (or rather often doesnt). Secondly, Kynesie was surprised by the trade monopoly victory strat, a second match would be different (I believe one game he almost denied it also). Plus, if that is the only way to kind of win vs these strats, that in itself already shows that there is something wrong with the game. Also because TP victory isnt possible on every map due to TP locations.

"If it truly was broken, you would see every player taking every opportunity to do a water turtle - but this simply does not happen."
I dont know the English word, but its such a bad and faulty way of arguing. First, maybe some people just dont like to play in such a shitty way? Secondly, we already see it more and more.
Third, it reminds me of when I said that India and Sioux were really good and discussed this with Blackstar during his spring tourney some time ago. Where 99% of this community including his opponent h20 were like nah, they are not. We all know the results, because it was then played properly. Unfortunately, we just dont have enough high level players these days who can think things through AND execute them properly. Im good with the 1st, Blackstar did the 2nd (and he is also good with the 1st).

For the record, as often said, im not for 99% semi-ff games either. I am however advocating skill-based-balanced games. I did like Dia's 3 different strats and Sompu's tactics to these games.

@edeholland, same as for Voodoo. Also it didnt blow my mind as i knew about what would happen before the game started ;)

@Diarouga, sure, also im not against walls entirely. I am however against their current stats/costs for obvious reasons.
Age Of Empires 3 Videos - GamePlay, Commentary & Tutorials: http://www.youtube.com/venividiviciw
Age Of Empires 3 Live Stream - http://www.twitch.tv/venividivici_w
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:i just went too greedy and i played way too passive to delay ur timing, coulve made more maces rather than coy after scouting rax and kept poking for example

It wasn't really too greedy. Like 3wp/700w/5v is definitely a good build order to hold that kind of timing, and the point is that you can't poke because I have the range advantage thanks to lb.

It's just the order which is too passive. As Aztec you will always have less vills but as long as the game is about army vs army they make up for it with units cards, more cards, better hard counter units, etc.
The problem with lbow start is that you don't have a way to stop coyo run byes. You might not lose a single vill but your manor boom is delayed and if you get too cheecky with the lbows you might even lose them. This is why 700w first with asap raids is better.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Turkey HUMMAN
Lancer
Posts: 817
Joined: Apr 16, 2017
ESO: HUMMAN

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by HUMMAN »

in aoe2 walls are even better, the thing is gold is necessary in mid game-you cant produce gold without a teammate- that you have to contest map, so its not important. I believe same map control should be in aoe3 too, turtling should be for a timing to gain map again either cause of trade monopoly or another map dependent advanteges ( powerful natives at mid game?). In aoe3 opposite happens, mostly there is no motive for defender to take map, the defending civ mostly has op late techs and eco(jap and portugal) and it depends whether attacker can break defense or not.
Image
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: diarouga vs snowww

  • Quote

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:@imperial_noob, I am all for different and new strategies.
"while most games still are full of battles" > isnt the case in such games, and wont be if many are going to play like that. Tbh idk if not achieving 4th age often is an issue. First of all, you got 25 cards, so you cant even have many cards in age4, perhaps this was considered during the creation of the game. Secondly, a good rts game imo is about the things ive mentioned before (map, micro, etc). Which, mostly the map control aspect, makes it logical to be over before a long 4th age game. Sc2 doesnt often reach full battlecruiser etc either, just sometimes.

I think you're wrong with the sc2 comparision. While it's true that you don't reach full battlecruiser very often (it's mostly because you don't want to have a full battlecruiser army), the games go to late game very often. For instance, I'd say that at least 1 game out of 3 in tvz go to late game. That's where you see late game units such as ghosts, sometimes thors, and some BCs indeed.

@Cometk, i know aoe2 has a lot of walling yes. Im not that familar with all the game details, but i believe walls are less of an issue there since you can take them down easier?

Walls in aoc are absolutely unkillable in age 2. Like really, there's no way you can kill even wood walls in age 2. You have to get age 3 and get rams, and against stone walls I'd say that you even need to go to age 4 to get the trebuchet.
The difference is that in aoc, all the civs have about the same booming options, so you can always outboom, which is not true about aoe3, like there's no way you can outboom Brit or Japan with some civs.


Its just a TEMPORARY delay/re-guiding, rather than something you can hide behind for long, for a very low relative cost. Also in aoe2 you have 4 resources and overall its further away from your main. You cant sit on 1x1cm terrain like in aoe3 with TCs. Making walls less of an isssue also, since you cant defend every side easily since you have to cover more.

That's wrong again, you can turtle for 20-25 min behind walls, and you'll have enough resources as you go for farms anyway so it's just about wood and (sometimes) coin. From what I've seen, top players wall their base every game, the difference is that it's accepted by the players, and that all civs have a decent late game, and the same boom options.
I'd say that the only thing you get in aoc from map control is the relics.


@VooDoo_BoSs, I have seen the games. I know Erik didnt play good, bad macro, late ups etc. Doesnt change my point though.
"Werent even close" is not how i would describe sompu vs kynesie, but i understand you would like to exaggerate here. First of all, Kynesie is just a fine player, nothing op. So imagine someone with better skills abusing these things.

I know that you like to say that kynesie is nothing special, and while it's true according to your standard because he's not great at raiding or microing, he's really insane at walling, hiding, managing the sea and macroing with a huge eco.
You're probably going to say that it's not skill, but it makes a huge difference, like when players like me (I don't know if I'm decent according to you though) try to do the same, we face a lot of issues. For example we have issues macroing with all the coin we get, and we often suffer from a huge lack of space. We're also worse at rewalling and making the right decision on the sea, like when do you need to build towers etc...
Again, you're going to say that it's not a skill, and that anyone could do that with some practice, but the point is that atm kynesie is better than anyone at doing this. blackstar_op, who is for sure a much better than kynesie overall, was not nearly as good as kynesie at water booming. Because of his lack of experience for sure, with 500 water games he would get better, but with 500 games playing against a water boom, anyone would become better at countering sea booms.
Anyway, you can't say that kynesie is just a "fine player", not op at playing water while he's far better than anyone else. Now you can claim that it's boring and lame, which is something I can understand, but it's probably not good.


Compare for example how Knush micros his canons as port and how Kynesie does it (or rather often doesnt).

Well kynesie is indeed nothing special at microing, but he's much better at hiding and fighting on sea, which is a lot more important in this situation.

Secondly, Kynesie was surprised by the trade monopoly victory strat, a second match would be different (I believe one game he almost denied it also). Plus, if that is the only way to kind of win vs these strats, that in itself already shows that there is something wrong with the game. Also because TP victory isnt possible on every map due to TP locations.

"If it truly was broken, you would see every player taking every opportunity to do a water turtle - but this simply does not happen."
I dont know the English word, but its such a bad and faulty way of arguing. First, maybe some people just dont like to play in such a shitty way? Secondly, we already see it more and more.

Do we? If that's true, then that's because of the water buff which doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, the only viable water boom atm is the Port water boom, so idk how you can claim that when Brit, Jap and even Russia can water boom on the RE.

Third, it reminds me of when I said that India and Sioux were really good and discussed this with Blackstar during his spring tourney some time ago. Where 99% of this community including his opponent h20 were like nah, they are not. We all know the results, because it was then played properly. Unfortunately, we just dont have enough high level players these days who can think things through AND execute them properly. Im good with the 1st, Blackstar did the 2nd (and he is also good with the 1st).

Well, that's because Sioux is one of the worst RE civ lol. Also India is an average civ, not too good against Sioux especially. Still, India should win that MU but H2O got an awful start (he aged like at 5:10 because of coin start and lost one monk while bsop got all the treasures iirc). Finally H2O just misplayed that MU. After all, he never practiced it, and didn't even think Sioux could be an issue.
I don't know why he blamed it on balance, but claiming a MU is unbalanced while it's the first time you play it, and you get an awful start isn't really how you should approach balance.


For the record, as often said, im not for 99% semi-ff games either. I am however advocating skill-based-balanced games. I did like Dia's 3 different strats and Sompu's tactics to these games.

@edeholland, same as for Voodoo. Also it didnt blow my mind as i knew about what would happen before the game started ;)

@Diarouga, sure, also im not against walls entirely. I am however against their current stats/costs for obvious reasons.

I also think that walls are a bit too strong but it's a part of the game atm, and if you lose a MU because of walls, then you can't say that it is even, even if it is without walls.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:i just went too greedy and i played way too passive to delay ur timing, coulve made more maces rather than coy after scouting rax and kept poking for example

It wasn't really too greedy. Like 3wp/700w/5v is definitely a good build order to hold that kind of timing, and the point is that you can't poke because I have the range advantage thanks to lb.

It's just the order which is too passive. As Aztec you will always have less vills but as long as the game is about army vs army they make up for it with units cards, more cards, better hard counter units, etc.
The problem with lbow start is that you don't have a way to stop coyo run byes. You might not lose a single vill but your manor boom is delayed and if you get too cheecky with the lbows you might even lose them. This is why 700w first with asap raids is better.

The 3 wp pay off really fast, so it's not really going to hurt you. I think that it might delay your first coyote batch by like 15 sec which isn't going to change the game. Also you need to send the 3 wp at some point anyway because you need the war dance if you want to have a shot in late colonial, so skipping the 3 wp is like wasting one shipment, and going 700w/3wp instead of 3wp/700w means that you'll get your coyotes 15 sec earlier but your build will be much slower.
All in all, you probably hurt yourself more than you hurt your opponent by going 700w/3wp instead of 3wp/700w.
Also the coyote run bys indeed delay the manor boom but you're going to lose coyotes to lb and TC fire on the other hand, so it's not that relevant. The brit player can even wall and deny the raids. I didn't wall here because it's hard to do so on Florida because of the TP line, and because Hazza would have raged hard.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by Garja »

By my experience coyote run by is always a good trade even when you lose some of them and don't get any vill. Just driving attention from the manor boom is good by itself and producing coyotes give XP anyway so it helps with shipment progression. Also 700w 3wp is coherent with the 600w 5v follow up which makes so that you don't have to chop wood at all after 250w for the rax. This maximize the number of units you can have with an economic build in the first 7 min. It may not seem relevant but one way to play the MU as Brits is to go pure huss with crates and do hardcore raiding and that's quite hard to hold for Azzies if they don't make units asap (Chinese players used to do that). The more lax the meta becomes the less you will see this kind of play and in general player battling for the initiative in the first 5-7 minutes of the game.
Anyway I think this is a BO finess. I can see situations where a giving up on raiding and going for a more passive 3wp 700w can be better. The important thing is to match exactly what Brits are doing by sending the most flexible cards. This means sending 10 maces or 6 puma only when 100% needed. Otherwise 600w and 600g are always better. Specifically 600g/10 mace trade off seems very recurrent in this MU as the point where you have to make the decision is generally when Brits decide to either age or push. I'd say with time I learnt to always send 600g if there is a stable because you need to commit to pikes for more than just one batch and can always make 5 maces instead of sending 10. Also 600g set you up to age up.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by Goodspeed »

Imperial Noob wrote:
Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:Diarouga, if anything, that argument of your game vs kynesie just shows walls (at least with current stats/costs) are completely changing the game in a way they are not supposed to, especially with some people abusing it as much as possible

Sadly, this game is getting further from a real strategy game as people just wall everything like its an nr10 or w.e other game where you just sit back and do nothing. Unlike a real rts game, where you have to fight for the map and resources, think about positioning of units and groups instead of sitting between a wall and 2 buildings, or where you have to actually micro your units instead of just watching your units behind a wall while eating a snack.

Perhaps in a way to balance the game and civs, the EP maps just have too many resources too close to the base, allowing similar defensive strats in a lot of cases, which otherwise shouldnt work or at least not that easily.


I remember the matches several years back, when I thought that walls, outposts and booming are completely useless in this game, because enemies are going to kill all and force vills to the TC every game. The only existing playstyle was bullying. Now we see more defensive play, building placement, water play, sieging, city unit positioning and more games reaching industrial, while most games still are full of battles, army races to a scouted economic spot, raids etc. The state of the game when industrial (upper 40% of possible ages) was hardly ever reached, was imho retarded.
Agree. It's a shame I got tired of this game a long time ago because I would much prefer to have played it in the current meta. The game is so much more strategically interesting now. Whereas in the RE days and the ASFP days we were seeing the same exact builds over and over, now there is incredible (at least in comparison) variety. Of course EP isn't perfect but the state of the game seems great to me. I think it's saying a lot that in this mono-civ cup we are seeing a wide variety of civs picked, we have 4 different civs in the semis, and no matter the match-up the best player usually wins.

I think walls are still too strong though. We nerfed only wood walls in EP1 and made a point of keeping stone walls the same. I think that was a mistake in hindsight.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:By my experience coyote run by is always a good trade even when you lose some of them and don't get any vill. Just driving attention from the manor boom is good by itself

You expect your opponent to macro poorly because you raid him. You can't expect to win because your opponent makes mistakes.

and producing coyotes give XP anyway so it helps with shipment progression. Also 700w 3wp is coherent with the 600w 5v follow up which makes so that you don't have to chop wood at all after 250w for the rax.

Well, with the 3wp/700w build you just gather 125 extra wood, and then you don't need to send 600w, because of this extra wood+the earlier 5v shipment, which means you can send 10 maces and 9 maces instead.

This maximize the number of units you can have with an economic build in the first 7 min.

Maybe it does maximize the amount of units you can get in the first 7 min, but at 7:20 you'll have less, and having more units before 7min is irrelevant because early pushes are easy to hold thanks to vill fighting, TC fire and MM.

It may not seem relevant but one way to play the MU as Brits is to go pure huss with crates and do hardcore raiding and that's quite hard to hold for Azzies if they don't make units asap (Chinese players used to do that).

Just start with a pike batch if you see a stable, and you'll be fine because you'll have more eco and a better unit composition.

The more lax the meta becomes the less you will see this kind of play and in general player battling for the initiative in the first 5-7 minutes of the game.

It of course wouldn't work that way on the RE, but in the current meta, on the EP maps, that's just how the MU works. And having the initative for the first 5-7 minutes of the game is irrelevant.

Anyway I think this is a BO finess. I can see situations where a giving up on raiding and going for a more passive 3wp 700w can be better. The important thing is to match exactly what Brits are doing by sending the most flexible cards. This means sending 10 maces or 6 puma only when 100% needed. Otherwise 600w and 600g are always better. Specifically 600g/10 mace trade off seems very recurrent in this MU as the point where you have to make the decision is generally when Brits decide to either age or push. I'd say with time I learnt to always send 600g if there is a stable because you need to commit to pikes for more than just one batch and can always make 5 maces instead of sending 10. Also 600g set you up to age up.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Goodspeed wrote:
Imperial Noob wrote:
Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:Diarouga, if anything, that argument of your game vs kynesie just shows walls (at least with current stats/costs) are completely changing the game in a way they are not supposed to, especially with some people abusing it as much as possible

Sadly, this game is getting further from a real strategy game as people just wall everything like its an nr10 or w.e other game where you just sit back and do nothing. Unlike a real rts game, where you have to fight for the map and resources, think about positioning of units and groups instead of sitting between a wall and 2 buildings, or where you have to actually micro your units instead of just watching your units behind a wall while eating a snack.

Perhaps in a way to balance the game and civs, the EP maps just have too many resources too close to the base, allowing similar defensive strats in a lot of cases, which otherwise shouldnt work or at least not that easily.


I remember the matches several years back, when I thought that walls, outposts and booming are completely useless in this game, because enemies are going to kill all and force vills to the TC every game. The only existing playstyle was bullying. Now we see more defensive play, building placement, water play, sieging, city unit positioning and more games reaching industrial, while most games still are full of battles, army races to a scouted economic spot, raids etc. The state of the game when industrial (upper 40% of possible ages) was hardly ever reached, was imho retarded.
Agree. It's a shame I got tired of this game a long time ago because I would much prefer to have played it in the current meta. The game is so much more strategically interesting now. Whereas in the RE days and the ASFP days we were seeing the same exact builds over and over, now there is incredible (at least in comparison) variety. Of course EP isn't perfect but the state of the game seems great to me. I think it's saying a lot that in this mono-civ cup we are seeing a wide variety of civs picked, we have 4 different civs in the semis, and no matter the match-up the best player usually wins.

I think walls are still too strong though. We nerfed only wood walls in EP1 and made a point of keeping stone walls the same. I think that was a mistake.

If I remember correctly, the argument was that we didn't want the EP changes to affect treaty games too much, and thus we decided not to nerf stone walls. Now this argument is irrelevant. Anyway, the next patchs are going to be so bad that these kind of changes hardly matter.
User avatar
Finland princeofkabul
Pro Player
NWC LAN Top 8EPL Reigning Champs
Posts: 2372
Joined: Feb 28, 2015
ESO: Princeofkabul
Location: In retirement home with Sam and Vic

Re: diarouga vs snowww

  • Quote

Post by princeofkabul »

always the same, non mechanical players defending their kind and mechanical players doing the same on their side. I understand both aspects, most likely because I've always found myself in the middle ground between these two categories.
Balance is just fine fine currently. we really shouldn't be nitpicking such irrelevant things seen in these games between diarouga and snowww. I'm fairly certain Diarouga knows what he did was very beatable if he had rewatched the games. I'm just happy that there's a patch which is very balanced in aoe 3 standards compared where we started from.
Chairman of Washed Up clan
Leader of the Shady Swedes
Team Manager of the Blockhouse Boomers
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: diarouga vs snowww

Post by Garja »

There is nothing subjective on delaying manor boom with coyote raids. You can't simply leave the vill building it while attacked. At best you save it and delay the manor or you sac the vill for some coyos, assuming lbows are in position. Either way it's good for Aztecs.
As for starting pike, ye that's ok to counter huss, but you sometimes you don't have info on the stable (happens quite often) and in any case if you're macroed for wood units it's not very efficient to mvoe vills to gold and make a batch of puma. Even in the best case you're gonna waste 2 WH cycles for 5 puma only which will hurt your mass later. Starting pikes also exposes you to timings with 6 musks and 6 lbows, more than starting coyotes. If you have a FB that's going to be risky. I normally start pike only if I build in base, and I normally build in base if I have enough of other advantage to back justify it (10wp or sea).
Image Image Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV