NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by gibson »

Dolan wrote:
gibson wrote:Somewhere between a very small amount and none.

Based on what?
Based on the fact that most dont cheat
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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

gibson wrote:Honestly they should just be thankful they aren't permanently banned. I'd put this on a similar level to match fixing, which dota 2, sc2, and csgo have all permanently banned players for.

You seem to forget erik did the same in 2015.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by ChewSick »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
gibson wrote:Honestly they should just be thankful they aren't permanently banned. I'd put this on a similar level to match fixing, which dota 2, sc2, and csgo have all permanently banned players for.

You seem to forget erik did the same in 2015.


The difference being that it wasn't a finals game and it wasn't on another player's account who attended the tournament (he just played the tournament on 2 different accounts).

I'm not saying it's okay to do that but that's not the same.

Edit: not finals but you get what I mean
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Post by deleted_user0 »

Also erik did it to troll fard afaik, not to win a prize. So definitely should be treated differently
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Post by Sargsyan »

Now we all know why he calls himself haraka, thats just because he did a harakiri after winning 3 games vs snow genuinely
krichk wrote:For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge Challenger_Marco
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by sisinobubles »

Welp, that's sad they cheated.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

ChewSick wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
gibson wrote:Honestly they should just be thankful they aren't permanently banned. I'd put this on a similar level to match fixing, which dota 2, sc2, and csgo have all permanently banned players for.

You seem to forget erik did the same in 2015.


The difference being that it wasn't a finals game and it wasn't on another player's account who attended the tournament (he just played the tournament on 2 different accounts).

I'm not saying it's okay to do that but that's not the same.

Edit: not finals but you get what I mean

Some years ago erik also smurfed a tournament (something like RO16 or RO8) and kicked out a big favorite. There was no admin decision as the tournament admins only learnt about it after the tournament was over but it's the same thing.

My point isn't that it's fine to smurf, they had to disqualify both Tit and kynesie, but imo they shouldn't be banned from the next tournaments (especially Tit).
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by lesllamas »

umeu wrote:Also erik did it to troll fard afaik, not to win a prize. So definitely should be treated differently


I think these are two separate issues. If kynesie did this with the intent to troll snowww, it would still be just as wrong because of the actual consequences (unfairly cheating someone out of a prize). Intent really shouldn't be part of the equation when evaluating whether someone's action is XYZ levels of bad--only the impact of their cheating on others. I'm definitely all for a zero tolerance policy on cheating. Of all the competitive communities I've been a part of, AOE3 has probably the worst issue with it (though people seem mostly enabled by the ease of doing so due to technical limitations). Anybody who cheats in a tournament environment should, IMO, be insta DQ'd by the tournament organizers and permabanned from participating in another tournament that's put on by those same organizers.
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Post by Squamiger »

damn that sucks. this tourney is a big moment for aoe3, and with all the work escapeaoe and interjection and the casters are putting in, this really blows. this isn't just cheating for imaginary internet points, its cheating to rob snowww of a trip to the UK, potentially rob other players of $4k, and rob Interjection and the AoE3 team at Escapeaoe of their reputation and success
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

lesllamas wrote:Anybody who cheats in a tournament environment should, IMO, be insta DQ'd by the tournament organizers and permabanned from participating in another tournament that's put on by those same organizers.

I'm not saying that this is a fine behaviour at all, and banning them from this tournament was the right decision, but doing what you're suggesting is the best way to get more invite spammers and more smurfs. kynesie and Tit probably wouldn't do this but going full Daenerys isn't the smartest answer most of the time.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

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[Armag] diarouga wrote:
lesllamas wrote:Anybody who cheats in a tournament environment should, IMO, be insta DQ'd by the tournament organizers and permabanned from participating in another tournament that's put on by those same organizers.

I'm not saying that this is a fine behaviour at all, and banning them from this tournament was the right decision, but doing what you're suggesting is the best way to get more invite spammers and more smurfs. kynesie and Tit probably wouldn't do this but going full Daenerys isn't the smartest answer most of the time.


You could argue the hypothetical from both sides. If you don't give anybody penalties beyond disqualification in the tournament they're cheating in, then what's the real incentive for a person who can't actually win the whole thing without cheating NOT to cheat once they reach opponents they can't beat honestly? If they don't get caught, it's great for them. If they do get caught, they lose nothing they wouldn't have already lost.

You're right that AOE3 has a pretty small community so permabanning players has a larger effect than in other games with a more diverse population of top players. That's an issue I don't know how to fully solve. But also this is just what I'd suggest to individual tournament organizers. That is, EscapeAOE IMO should never allow Tit or Kynesie to compete in another one of their events, but that doesn't mean ALL tournament organizers have to do that. If ESOC hosts a tournament independently, perhaps they could compete there (unless of course they continue to cheat, in which case they'd be banned from ESOC group events, too).
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by pecelot »

Oof

though credits to @Kaiserklein for being alert
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by pecelot »

also btw. remember how Erik smurfed the 2015 summer tournament :maniac: ironic, how the times change :hehe:
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Post by Dolan »

Tit was just being a good Christian and doing unto Snowww what Snowww had done unto others.

✝ Blessed be G's name, for He will not leave unpunished him who smurfs in an Esoc tourney. ✝
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Post by Snuden »

Squamiger wrote:damn that sucks. this tourney is a big moment for aoe3, and with all the work escapeaoe and interjection and the casters are putting in, this really blows. this isn't just cheating for imaginary internet points, its cheating to rob snowww of a trip to the UK, potentially rob other players of $4k, and rob Interjection and the AoE3 team at Escapeaoe of their reputation and success

Yea... And it kinda cast a dark shadow over the entire tournament I think. You could see the look on Interjections face at the end of the stream, he looked devastated.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by deleted_user0 »

lesllamas wrote:
umeu wrote:Also erik did it to troll fard afaik, not to win a prize. So definitely should be treated differently


I think these are two separate issues. If kynesie did this with the intent to troll snowww, it would still be just as wrong because of the actual consequences (unfairly cheating someone out of a prize). Intent really shouldn't be part of the equation when evaluating whether someone's action is XYZ levels of bad--only the impact of their cheating on others. I'm definitely all for a zero tolerance policy on cheating. Of all the competitive communities I've been a part of, AOE3 has probably the worst issue with it (though people seem mostly enabled by the ease of doing so due to technical limitations). Anybody who cheats in a tournament environment should, IMO, be insta DQ'd by the tournament organizers and permabanned from participating in another tournament that's put on by those same organizers.


yea you're right about the first part, although I'm not entirely sure if I agree about intent not mattering, although I get that this is hard to determine. But in general, in law, the intentions of the person definitely matter.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by bobabu »

Vinyanyérë wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:imho: past bans for smurfs have been more lenient, but circumstances also were different. They literally tried to steal a flight to uk from snow, and potentially a 4k usd prize from the other players, not to mention escapetv.
I'm sure the decision to ban kynesie as well as tit is the right one here.


eh

From what I recall there's been two bans for smurfing in the past. Once for Hazza smurfing on bobabu in Autumn 2016 and once for Butifle smurfing on Sir_Musket in 2nd Chance Autumn 2017. In both cases both players involved were immediately DQ'd. In the former case there were no further penalties besides the DQ. In the latter case there were further penalties; I'm not sure if those further penalties were completely specified, but they ended up amounting to a season-long ban for Butifle (no major was run in Spring 2018; instead there were a sequence of weekend tournaments run for a "tournament season") and Sir_Musket was banned from forums and tournaments for unrelated reasons making the question for him irrelevant.

From that precedence, I don't think there can be any question as to whether or not there should be an immediate DQ of the players involved, no matter what the circumstances are. The only way in which this action would be harsher than before then is in determining how long the indefinite tournament ban is. In the context of a free flight to the UK, a 4k tournament, and an opportunity to hang out with SoldieR irl, that seems a little like debating whether or not to punish someone with 30 years in prison or 30 years in prison plus they have to pay their $50 parking ticket. Regardless, I'm not convinced that it's harsher even with the indefinite tournament ban. Like, since indefinite can be as long or as short as you like, you can either divorce the context from the actions and make "indefinite" a short amount of time consistent with prior admin actions, or you can account for the context and the inconvenience that's caused and make "indefinite" a long amount of time still consistent with prior admin actions.

unrelated: It's probably worth noting that EscapeAoE is a third-party organization not technically affiliated with ESOC, they have full-time employees whose career and livelihood is materially affected by the success of the organization, and I'd be very surprised and impressed if this event came at a net profit to them. I'm speculating heavily now, but it seems likely that Interjection is the main representative of AoE3 at EscapeAoE, and it's not a good look when a major event like this has this kind of stuff. EscapeAoE's willingness to be involved with AoE3 isn't a guarantee and it's probably a good idea for everyone to do their best not to screw it up.


Well at the time it was never my intention to progress in the tournament. We just wanted to troll Wicked. And Hazza is a good mate of Wicked. It was at an earlier stage of the tournament and the games were lost. And we informed Wicked about the smurf in the aftermath. So the consequences weren't as harsh. Because it was intended as a joke.

It's an obvious gamble. The event will not bring any profits for the investor family. They are speculating that Age of Empires 4 will be big. And having an established platform as a first mover could give them the momentum. So you shouldn't be hailing them for what they are doing. With every investment there's a, I would, however, hail the people that worked for this community all these years for free.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Squamiger »

Snuden wrote:
Squamiger wrote:damn that sucks. this tourney is a big moment for aoe3, and with all the work escapeaoe and interjection and the casters are putting in, this really blows. this isn't just cheating for imaginary internet points, its cheating to rob snowww of a trip to the UK, potentially rob other players of $4k, and rob Interjection and the AoE3 team at Escapeaoe of their reputation and success

Yea... And it kinda cast a dark shadow over the entire tournament I think. You could see the look on Interjections face at the end of the stream, he looked devastated.


after seeing this thread I went back and rewatched it, and yea, that killed me. you could see that interjection had just found out.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

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Post by Djigit »

If you think about it, kynesie is the only player who defeated two top 8 players in the tournament Image
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by bobabu »

lesllamas wrote:
umeu wrote:Also erik did it to troll fard afaik, not to win a prize. So definitely should be treated differently


I think these are two separate issues. If kynesie did this with the intent to troll snowww, it would still be just as wrong because of the actual consequences (unfairly cheating someone out of a prize). Intent really shouldn't be part of the equation when evaluating whether someone's action is XYZ levels of bad--only the impact of their cheating on others. I'm definitely all for a zero tolerance policy on cheating. Of all the competitive communities I've been a part of, AOE3 has probably the worst issue with it (though people seem mostly enabled by the ease of doing so due to technical limitations). Anybody who cheats in a tournament environment should, IMO, be insta DQ'd by the tournament organizers and permabanned from participating in another tournament that's put on by those same organizers.

Well if you troll someone you inform them at the end. Like we did at the time. Even in law, the consequences are different if you do inform the opposite party before there is a statement about it.
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Post by Mitoe »

lesllamas wrote:You could argue the hypothetical from both sides. If you don't give anybody penalties beyond disqualification in the tournament they're cheating in, then what's the real incentive for a person who can't actually win the whole thing without cheating NOT to cheat once they reach opponents they can't beat honestly? If they don't get caught, it's great for them. If they do get caught, they lose nothing they wouldn't have already lost.

You're right that AOE3 has a pretty small community so permabanning players has a larger effect than in other games with a more diverse population of top players. That's an issue I don't know how to fully solve. But also this is just what I'd suggest to individual tournament organizers. That is, EscapeAOE IMO should never allow Tit or Kynesie to compete in another one of their events, but that doesn't mean ALL tournament organizers have to do that. If ESOC hosts a tournament independently, perhaps they could compete there (unless of course they continue to cheat, in which case they'd be banned from ESOC group events, too).

To say they lose nothing is not really fair. Materially they lose nothing, true, but reputation means a lot in a small community like this, especially since it's nearly impossible to create a new account and start over without people figuring out who you are, and I can imagine having a thread like this doesn't feel very good--not to mention the potential it has to negatively impact friendships or other relationships within the community.

It's a delicate situation for sure. On the one hand you don't want to associate your competition with incidents like this, but on the other hand losing two very strong players is a big blow to the community in the long run. It's up to them to prove that they can be trusted to participate fairly in future events. Ultimately that's something you have to rely on whenever you're hosting something like this over the internet: trust. Cheat-prevention will never be perfect in this kind of environment, and at the end of the day these tournaments are mostly for fun, the prizes relatively small, and the outcome doesn't drastically impact the lives of those involved since no one is relying on AoE3 as a livelihood.


Though, as you (and earlier Duck/Vinyanyérë) mentioned, in this particular case it does affect the staff at EscapeTV who are relying on the AoE franchise for their livelihoods at the moment, and ultimately it will be up to them whether they allow Kynesie/Tit to participate in any future events they host.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Dolan »

I think this is getting overly dramatic. The guys at Escape don't rely on AOE content to make a living, they're funded by a company from Germany.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Mitoe »

Dolan wrote:I think this is getting overly dramatic. The guys at Escape don't rely on AOE content to make a living, they're funded by a company from Germany.

I don't really know exactly how they're being funded, but to say that their careers do not rely on AoE content is simply false, no? They would need a very compelling reason to remove AoE from their content and still maintain funding from said company; hence, they rely on AoE content to make a living.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Mitoe wrote:
lesllamas wrote:You could argue the hypothetical from both sides. If you don't give anybody penalties beyond disqualification in the tournament they're cheating in, then what's the real incentive for a person who can't actually win the whole thing without cheating NOT to cheat once they reach opponents they can't beat honestly? If they don't get caught, it's great for them. If they do get caught, they lose nothing they wouldn't have already lost.

You're right that AOE3 has a pretty small community so permabanning players has a larger effect than in other games with a more diverse population of top players. That's an issue I don't know how to fully solve. But also this is just what I'd suggest to individual tournament organizers. That is, EscapeAOE IMO should never allow Tit or Kynesie to compete in another one of their events, but that doesn't mean ALL tournament organizers have to do that. If ESOC hosts a tournament independently, perhaps they could compete there (unless of course they continue to cheat, in which case they'd be banned from ESOC group events, too).

To say they lose nothing is not really fair. Materially they lose nothing, true, but reputation means a lot in a small community like this, especially since it's nearly impossible to create a new account and start over without people figuring out who you are, and I can imagine having a thread like this doesn't feel very good--not to mention the potential it has to negatively impact friendships or other relationships within the community.

It's a delicate situation for sure. On the one hand you don't want to associate your competition with incidents like this, but on the other hand losing two very strong players is a big blow to the community in the long run. It's up to them to prove that they can be trusted to participate fairly in future events. Ultimately that's something you have to rely on whenever you're hosting something like this over the internet: trust. Cheat-prevention will never be perfect in this kind of environment, and at the end of the day these tournaments are mostly for fun, the prizes relatively small, and the outcome doesn't drastically impact the lives of those involved since no one is relying on AoE3 as a livelihood.


Though, as you (and earlier Duck/Vinyanyérë) mentioned, in this particular case it does affect the staff at EscapeTV who are relying on the AoE franchise for their livelihoods at the moment, and ultimately it will be up to them whether they allow Kynesie/Tit to participate in any future events they host.


considering that almost everyone still plays with sir musket... reputation doesn't mean that much...
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Goodspeed »

Dolan wrote:I think this is getting overly dramatic. The guys at Escape don't rely on AOE content to make a living, they're funded by a company from Germany.
If there was no AoE content they would have little reason to exist. I'm sure they plan on expanding to other games but as of now it's really just AoE

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