NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Australia Hazza54321
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Not saying my smurfing ban was unjustified at all but i knew I wouldn’t beat wicked and bobabu was serving in Military. I told wicked after but ofc the ban was 100% deserved. I do not think they should be perma banned from future tournaments (not because theyre top players, they do provide good entertainment however) but because both are nice guys and it was clearly out of character. Think they deserve forgiveness by the time the next tournament occurs
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Dolan »

@Mitoe
They get money from a company in Germany, called Escape Gaming GmbH, located in Dortmund. Do you think they bought that equipment in the studio from stream revenue? It would have taken them a few good years to get there. Not to mention the rent for so much real estate.

Someone's investing in this franchise in anticipation of Microsoft publishing more AOE games, which may revive the audience for such games and obviously create a business opportunity to monetise this renewed attention to these games. They're not like those individual streamers who play in their room and make a living from subscriptions and sponsored ads, in return for using certain gaming equipment. The typical business model for something like this is to start small and grow an audience until you eventually manage to break even or make a profit. I think right now they're in the first stages, in which more money is invested than returned.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Mitoe »

@Dolan you completely missed the point.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Dolan »

No, I didn't. I know you meant that Escape needs to make sure they don't associate with shady players. But I think your assertion that they rely on stream revenue to make a living right now is just far off the mark.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Mitoe »

Nope, you’ve definitely missed it.

It doesn’t matter where the money came from—and I’m not naive enough to believe that it came from streaming, nor did I assert that their revenue is dependent on stream income. As GoodSpeed mentioned they would have little reason to exist without AoE, and it’s something they work with full time. They’re receiving funding because of their AoE content and to continue making AoE content, and therefore their careers depend upon it.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Kawapasaka »

Makes me wonder how premeditated it was. Like, was it Tit's plan from the start, or did he just get to game 7 thinking "holy shit we might be able to go to the LAN together and Kynesie's ports would dominate on this map"?
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Dolan »

What's with this attitude of putting yourself so much on a pedestal, btw, Mitoe?

If you have something to say, say it, don't beat around the bush.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by lesllamas »

Mitoe wrote:
lesllamas wrote:You could argue the hypothetical from both sides. If you don't give anybody penalties beyond disqualification in the tournament they're cheating in, then what's the real incentive for a person who can't actually win the whole thing without cheating NOT to cheat once they reach opponents they can't beat honestly? If they don't get caught, it's great for them. If they do get caught, they lose nothing they wouldn't have already lost.

You're right that AOE3 has a pretty small community so permabanning players has a larger effect than in other games with a more diverse population of top players. That's an issue I don't know how to fully solve. But also this is just what I'd suggest to individual tournament organizers. That is, EscapeAOE IMO should never allow Tit or Kynesie to compete in another one of their events, but that doesn't mean ALL tournament organizers have to do that. If ESOC hosts a tournament independently, perhaps they could compete there (unless of course they continue to cheat, in which case they'd be banned from ESOC group events, too).

To say they lose nothing is not really fair. Materially they lose nothing, true, but reputation means a lot in a small community like this, especially since it's nearly impossible to create a new account and start over without people figuring out who you are, and I can imagine having a thread like this doesn't feel very good--not to mention the potential it has to negatively impact friendships or other relationships within the community.

It's a delicate situation for sure. On the one hand you don't want to associate your competition with incidents like this, but on the other hand losing two very strong players is a big blow to the community in the long run. It's up to them to prove that they can be trusted to participate fairly in future events. Ultimately that's something you have to rely on whenever you're hosting something like this over the internet: trust. Cheat-prevention will never be perfect in this kind of environment, and at the end of the day these tournaments are mostly for fun, the prizes relatively small, and the outcome doesn't drastically impact the lives of those involved since no one is relying on AoE3 as a livelihood.


Though, as you (and earlier Duck/Vinyanyérë) mentioned, in this particular case it does affect the staff at EscapeTV who are relying on the AoE franchise for their livelihoods at the moment, and ultimately it will be up to them whether they allow Kynesie/Tit to participate in any future events they host.


This is somewhat a fair point, but it's hard to quantify. How discouraged from cheating do you reasonably expect a person to be due to reputation loss? I think the kind of person who cheats in a tournament has already shown (by cheating in such a niche environment with such low stakes) that their priorities are unpredictable, illogical, or at least a little out of whack. Maybe it will affect the ego of some players more than others (maybe they're just cheating because they want people to think they're really good), but I have to assume there are those that just genuinely don't give a shit about other people (hence the cheating).

I don't know--it's a shitty situation all around, and it's a hard decision for any TO to make. I think the response by the TOs in this thread has been completely levelheaded and appropriate. Just throwing my 2 cents in.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

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Post by Hazza54321 »

I dont think it was premeditated, tit ran out of civs in a deciding game, and they were both confident kynesie port would beat erik on sea.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Mitoe »

Dolan wrote:What's with this attitude of putting yourself so much on a pedestal, btw, Mitoe?

If you have something to say, say it, don't beat around the bush.

???

Also edited my post.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by lesllamas »

Hazza54321 wrote:I dont think it was premeditated, tit ran out of civs in a deciding game, and they were both confident kynesie port would beat erik on sea.


I mean on some level it had to have been discussed before they actually did it. There's no way they just both spontaneously did this. I would be curious to know exactly how that conversation went, though, and when it was had--like who proposed it initially? How hastily was the decision made? I don't think it matters a TON but I'm just curious because I think it'd give us a peek inside who each of them is, a bit. Doubt anyone but them will ever know the full truth, though.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Dolan »

@Mitoe

Your assertion:
Though, as you (and earlier Duck/Vinyanyérë) mentioned, in this particular case it does affect the staff at EscapeTV who are relying on the AoE franchise for their livelihoods at the moment, and ultimately it will be up to them whether they allow Kynesie/Tit to participate in any future events they host.

Now you're moving the goalposts in another direction, implying you were referring to them relying on AOE content to keep their current jobs. Whatever, you can interpret that quote in many ways. But these people don't really rely on anything at the moment, they are funded anyway. They're just streaming some games in a studio, warming up an audience, that's all. I think we're making too much drama over this small incident.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Mitoe »

@Dolan I don’t think anything I said in that post is inconsistent with my latest post?

Your assertion that they don’t rely on anything is confusing, and honestly makes little sense to me.

There’s some kind of misunderstanding here. Both the short-term and long-term plans for the guys at Escape (as far as I know, anyway), are dependent on AoE, and any success or lack thereof in the present will affect the longevity of their careers. It seems to me that you are dismissing everything they’re doing right now as unimportant to their careers, but I don’t understand how that could possibly be the case because regardless of where the money is coming from, AoE is a very large part of the reason that money made its way there in the first place.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Goodspeed »

Dolan wrote:What's with this attitude of putting yourself so much on a pedestal, btw, Mitoe?

If you have something to say, say it, don't beat around the bush.
He didn't? :huh:
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Dolan »

@Mitoe

How does Tit cheating affect Escape staff's "livelihoods"? It's not like they're responsible for everything that a player does while they're getting streamed.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

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Post by Hazza54321 »

YOure still missing the point , their career is based around aoe, if they had the same funding for a different game they didnt enjoy its highly likely they wouldn’t do it. Doing a job that you love is priceless
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Dolan »

Dude, srsly, career? They're just streaming games that other people play. xD
That's not a career.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

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Post by deleted_user0 »

you need to get with the times, brolan. just taking selfies is a career these days, one that can get you a billion dollar market value.

but yea, I doubt that it will rub off negatively on interjection and the rest, in fact, might even legitimize them, every major sporting event has cheaters. the only thing that would rub off negatively is if they had handled it poorly. i think they handled it just fine.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Mitoe »

I’ve always assumed that the long-term plan was to eventually have a self-sustaining career based around organizing and running events. It’s a risk, for sure, but one that could work out in the future if AoE4 does well.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Snuden »

Dolan wrote:Dude, srsly, career? They're just streaming games that other people play. xD
That's not a career.

Ah! That's a little harsh to Escape and Interjection in particular.

Your comment might have been appropriate 15 years ago, but with all the money pouring into e-sports these days, this project have a legit chance of "making it big"
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Dolan »

umeu wrote:you need to get with the times, brolan. just taking selfies is a career these days, one that can get you a billion dollar market value.

Image
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by bobabu »

Mitoe wrote:I’ve always assumed that the long-term plan was to eventually have a self-sustaining career based around organizing and running events. It’s a risk, for sure, but one that could work out in the future if AoE4 does well.

Honestly, cheating is just normal. And they have to accept it and work against it. It's never gonna change. They need to learn how to deal with controversies and know how to tackle them in the future, basically having a game plan. We don't need to feel sorry for them. And they chose this path it doesn't matter if their livelihoods depend on it or not.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Goodspeed »

@Dolan Considering the first thing humans would do on any alternative planets is getting the internet up and running, being a social media celebrity is going to be a viable career choice all the same.
You might want to get out of this civilization. Good luck with that though
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by bobabu »

Goodspeed wrote:@Dolan Considering the first thing humans would do on any alternative planets is getting the internet up and running, being a social media celebrity is going to be a viable career choice all the same.
You might want to get out of this civilization. Good luck with that though

No in the future social media will change. So will the jobs. So it might not be a viable career anymore.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by bobabu »

Hazza54321 wrote:Not saying my smurfing ban was unjustified at all but i knew I wouldn’t beat wicked and bobabu was serving in Military. I told wicked after but ofc the ban was 100% deserved. I do not think they should be perma banned from future tournaments (not because theyre top players, they do provide good entertainment however) but because both are nice guys and it was clearly out of character. Think they deserve forgiveness by the time the next tournament occurs

Maybe it was good we set the precedent. Like that they were more prepared.

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