NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Riotcoke »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
ovi12 wrote:
Show hidden quotes

I don't know what exists, but I imagine there must be some small stuff you can do that would be very hard to spot

From my experience (I was well aware of what you could do and what you couldn't do 2 years ago), you can :
- maphack. It's the hardest thing to spot but with first person pov rec you can spot it.
- spawn stuffs (treasures, resources, trees, bisons, units...), which is super obvious in a casted game.
- Send the same shipment multiple times (like advanced market twice), but again, that's so obvious.
- Send any shipment instantly at any age, but that's of course obvious.

Honestly, I can't think of a way to cheat which wouldn't get spotted in a tournament.


You forgot UI cheating, which tit does.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Riotcoke wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

From my experience (I was well aware of what you could do and what you couldn't do 2 years ago), you can :
- maphack. It's the hardest thing to spot but with first person pov rec you can spot it.
- spawn stuffs (treasures, resources, trees, bisons, units...), which is super obvious in a casted game.
- Send the same shipment multiple times (like advanced market twice), but again, that's so obvious.
- Send any shipment instantly at any age, but that's of course obvious.

Honestly, I can't think of a way to cheat which wouldn't get spotted in a tournament.


You forgot UI cheating, which tit does.

Using custom UI isn't really cheating in my opinion as it doesn't give you any unfair advantage (it's just like building rotator or agra hotkeys). By that I mean that you're never going to win or lose a game thanks to the UI.
Furthermore, you can't play on the EP with a custom UI.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Riotcoke »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:
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You forgot UI cheating, which tit does.

Using custom UI isn't really cheating in my opinion as it doesn't give you any unfair advantage (it's just like building rotator or agra hotkeys). By that I mean that you're never going to win or lose a game thanks to the UI.
Furthermore, you can't play on the EP with a custom UI.


Having market Ui is cheating no doubt, it frees up Apm and gives you an advantage. Agra Hotkeys should just be a thing and are only not because the devs forgot them.
Also tit was steaming on EP with a custom Ui
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by princeofcarthage »

Goodspeed wrote:
XeeleeFlower wrote:It's not like Kynesie absolutely wiped the floor with Tabben. Losing 3-4 is pretty damn good considering Tabben's lack of experience (I'm not trying to be insulting here, Tabben just doesn't have as much tourney experience, specifically versus playstyles like Kynesie's). I'm sure he's learned a lot and will practice a lot prior to the LAN.

Edit: @Goodspeed stop posting my thoughts before I have a chance to complete them.
Yeah he probably would've done better against standard play.

It's funny because I later realized I forgot to add that point to my post but then I decided not to edit because the thread moves too fast. You might've been first had I actually finished the post properly before clicking submit. But who does that?

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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by XeeleeFlower »

princeofcarthage wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
XeeleeFlower wrote:It's not like Kynesie absolutely wiped the floor with Tabben. Losing 3-4 is pretty damn good considering Tabben's lack of experience (I'm not trying to be insulting here, Tabben just doesn't have as much tourney experience, specifically versus playstyles like Kynesie's). I'm sure he's learned a lot and will practice a lot prior to the LAN.

Edit: @Goodspeed stop posting my thoughts before I have a chance to complete them.
Yeah he probably would've done better against standard play.

It's funny because I later realized I forgot to add that point to my post but then I decided not to edit because the thread moves too fast. You might've been first had I actually finished the post properly before clicking submit. But who does that?

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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Jaeger »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
ovi12 wrote:
Show hidden quotes

I don't know what exists, but I imagine there must be some small stuff you can do that would be very hard to spot

From my experience (I was well aware of what you could do and what you couldn't do 2 years ago), you can :
- maphack. It's the hardest thing to spot but with first person pov rec you can spot it.
- spawn stuffs (treasures, resources, trees, bisons, units...), which is super obvious in a casted game.
- Send the same shipment multiple times (like advanced market twice), but again, that's so obvious.
- Send any shipment instantly at any age, but that's of course obvious.

Honestly, I can't think of a way to cheat which wouldn't get spotted in a tournament.

Would a shipment sent multiple times appear in the UI? I thought UI already had trouble detecting the double shipments from Japan; maybe they could send refrigeration and such twice.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Post by Kaiserklein »

Goodspeed wrote:You say it's not about subjective stuff but if you look at it purely objectively, when a player is DQ'd for any reason his opponent moves on to the next round. This has always been the case in the history of tournaments in every game, not just AoE3. It's not at all custom, and highly impractical, to redo your entire bracket just because 1 guy got DQ'd.

To illustrate: Why would WC and Soldier get another chance and not Aiz, who lost to Prince but may have beaten WC? Or iamturk, who lost only to Titnesie and Kynesie and actually beat Prince in the upper bracket?
Because this is not a round robin event and not everyone plays each other. Single elim and to a lesser extent double elim is by design unfair this way. If you get lucky and your opponent gets DQ'd, you move on.

Well yeah I guess it is ultimately about subjective stuff. Admins decisions are subjective anyway.
My point is just that it sucks that tabben goes to the lan without actually qualifying. It's just undeserved and feels unfair to others who made it to the last round of lower brackets. Sure, you could argue that aiz or anyone else could also get another chance and so on. But realistically, tabben's situation is not similar to aiz's, since aiz didn't make it to the last round. To me, tabben's position is totally symmetrical to soldier's or wicked's: they are all out of tourney after losing their qualification series. They didn't lose earlier in the brackets, they all lost in that same round. So I don't see why tabben gets to go through. If it's just because he was lucky enough that kynesie got dq'd, well that's kind of bs. It's just not fair. I wish we'd give these 3 players an equal chance to qualify, both for them and for the viewers.
After all, if the whole double elim system was setup to begin with, it was because they wanted to make sure they select the real top 8 players. Not to end up giving a qualification to someone who didn't qualify.

Again though, I do understand that it's the easiest and fastest solution.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

ovi12 wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

From my experience (I was well aware of what you could do and what you couldn't do 2 years ago), you can :
- maphack. It's the hardest thing to spot but with first person pov rec you can spot it.
- spawn stuffs (treasures, resources, trees, bisons, units...), which is super obvious in a casted game.
- Send the same shipment multiple times (like advanced market twice), but again, that's so obvious.
- Send any shipment instantly at any age, but that's of course obvious.

Honestly, I can't think of a way to cheat which wouldn't get spotted in a tournament.

Would a shipment sent multiple times appear in the UI? I thought UI already had trouble detecting the double shipments from Japan; maybe they could send refrigeration and such twice.

You would miss it on the UI. However you would see that one player misses one shipment, and watching the recorded game, it would be super obvious lol.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:You say it's not about subjective stuff but if you look at it purely objectively, when a player is DQ'd for any reason his opponent moves on to the next round. This has always been the case in the history of tournaments in every game, not just AoE3. It's not at all custom, and highly impractical, to redo your entire bracket just because 1 guy got DQ'd.

To illustrate: Why would WC and Soldier get another chance and not Aiz, who lost to Prince but may have beaten WC? Or iamturk, who lost only to Titnesie and Kynesie and actually beat Prince in the upper bracket?
Because this is not a round robin event and not everyone plays each other. Single elim and to a lesser extent double elim is by design unfair this way. If you get lucky and your opponent gets DQ'd, you move on.

Well yeah I guess it is ultimately about subjective stuff. Admins decisions are subjective anyway.
My point is just that it sucks that tabben goes to the lan without actually qualifying. It's just undeserved and feels unfair to others who made it to the last round of lower brackets. Sure, you could argue that aiz or anyone else could also get another chance and so on. But realistically, tabben's situation is not similar to aiz's, since aiz didn't make it to the last round. To me, tabben's position is totally symmetrical to soldier's or wicked's: they are all out of tourney after losing their qualification series. They didn't lose earlier in the brackets, they all lost in that same round. So I don't see why tabben gets to go through. If it's just because he was lucky enough that kynesie got dq'd, well that's kind of bs. It's just not fair. I wish we'd give these 3 players an equal chance to qualify, both for them and for the viewers.
After all, if the whole double elim system was setup to begin with, it was because they wanted to make sure they select the real top 8 players. Not to end up giving a qualification to someone who didn't qualify.

Again though, I do understand that it's the easiest and fastest solution.

Did erik qualify though?
He got matched against a cheater, but one could argue that he got lucky that Tit cheated and doesn't deserve his spot.
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Jaeger »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
ovi12 wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Would a shipment sent multiple times appear in the UI? I thought UI already had trouble detecting the double shipments from Japan; maybe they could send refrigeration and such twice.

You would miss it on the UI. However you would see that one player misses one shipment, and watching the recorded game, it would be super obvious lol.

Ahh right I guess you still need xp; I imagined you just click it and it immediately just gets applied
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Post by Kaiserklein »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Did erik qualify though?
He got matched against a cheater, but one could argue that he got lucky that Tit cheated and doesn't deserve his spot.

I know, he didn't really qualify either. But if you consider that he was given admin win for game 7 because tit cheated, he did win the series. It's a matter of point of view.
Anyway, he maybe didn't qualify, but at least, he didn't lose his qualification series. He just didn't complete it. There's a question mark as to whether he would have won the series or not if tit played legit, while we know tabben lost.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Post by deleted_user0 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:
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He's not top 8, it's unfair to let a player through by pure luck when you have wicked and soldier in the same position as him

It's unfair but that's how luck works.
In the New Year Classic hazza got an extremely easy bracket so he reached the finals easily, nothing you can do.


Its nit about easy bracket or not. Its about the fact that tabben didnt beat kynesie. And so if kynesie got dq without casting doubt on that series itself, then its not fair to let tabben go through. He lost in last round, just like 2 other players, and so they should play for that spot to make it fairest.

But anyway, its not that big of a deal. Most important happened, banning the cheaters
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by bobabu »

I would say they have to open a ninth spot, they can't take it away from tabben and snowww that would be unfair. But it would also be unfair to garja and iamturk if tit cheated on them too. So that's why they should battle this out for a last potential spot. I would ask them personally. And it's probably good to have a ninth if someone would have to cancel.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by Imperial Noob »

Not such a big deal for whom?
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Post by nimanoe »

Will it be announced for how long Tit and kynesie are banned or will they stay banned "indefinitely"?
I think it would be good to announce for how long they are banned, since it sets a precedent for the future and it's clear when they can join tournaments again.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by thomasgreen6 »

What an absolute tit Aykin Haraka
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by kami_ryu »

You say it's not about subjective stuff but if you look at it purely objectively, when a player is DQ'd for any reason his opponent moves on to the next round.


This. Right?
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Re: Integrity and Fair Play

Post by Method_man714 »

Dolan wrote:What's with this attitude of putting yourself so much on a pedestal, btw, Mitoe?

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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Post by Method_man714 »

Shit I forgot to say something before posting. Ah well
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Post by SoldieR »

I would have liked a 3 player round Robin as was a possibility, but I understand the decision not to, as tabben nearly won and the time to schedule. Not to mention the issues with other players that lost to these idiots and the discussion of if those players should have another chance.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by t3rror1sta »

Must agree with Kaiser.

Tabben, Whicked, Soldier and Snoww. Fighting to the death for 2 seats on the plane in a huge FFA map.

Or 2 FFA. Who wins the first and the second goes to manchester.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by Randy_Lahey »

@Kaiserklein

What about a b05 or b07 today or tomorrow, Wicked vs. Soldier and then the winner can play Tabben, shortly after, in a b07 to qualify for the final spot?

I agree with you that Tabben, Wicked, and Soldier are all in the same spot, so handing the spot to Tabben makes little sense. In this situation Tabben would get an advantage (not really deserved) to play the winner.

This could all be done within a few days, and I know Tabben shouldn't be given a huge advantage such as this, but it's better than just giving him the spot simply because he lost to Kynesie
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by Squamiger »

Snowww absolutely qualifies. He won the qualifying series. He made decisions within his qualifying round that resulted in a 3-3 score, and then won by admin decision in the final game. That's different than Tabben, Wicked, and Soldier, who lost their whole series. If admins can find any evidence of cheating in those games then it might change something, but as of right now, they haven't found anything. So Tabben, Wicked, and Soldier could absolutely play a quick elimination round and I think that would be fair enough though.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Post by Goodspeed »

This is just how elim brackets work. Sometimes you get lucky and get an easy bracket, whether that's due to bad players or DQs isn't relevant. If you want it to be perfectly fair then why aren't you complaining about the format (elim style) itself?

You guys are all just biased towards having more content to watch. :P
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by gibson »

Well they already said Tabben is going so they can't really change that, not fair to TAbben

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