NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Post by bobabu »

Imperial Noob wrote:
bobabu wrote:I mean garja was probably cheated on.

He asked for a replay of a series against Tit before it was cool :o :o :o

@Garja was always a trendsetter
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Who should be sent to the Lan

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Who should be sent to the Lan
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Re: Who should be sent to the Lan

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Post by n0el »

There should be a playoff between soldier, tabbed, snow and wicked for the two spots.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by princeofkabul »

why snowww?
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by Mosx »

Princeofkabul should play for lan him is top player
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Post by dietschlander »

I think Boneng should, if neccesary by force, be flown in
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Re: Who should be sent to the Lan

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Post by gh0st »

n0el wrote:There should be a playoff between soldier, tabbed, snow and wicked for the two spots.

better do a ffa on Ceylon tbf.
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Re: Who should be sent to the Lan

Post by lesllamas »

n0el wrote:There should be a playoff between soldier, tabbed, snow and wicked for the two spots.


This was a viable option for the admins when they were initially considering the decision, but now that theyā€™ve stated tabben is going I donā€™t think itā€™d be fair to him unless he agreed to it with them privately. Heā€™s probably already made plans or started making plans so unless this is a thing both he and the admins want to do, itā€™s probably not a workable solution.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by SoldieR »

I demand a final playoff . Garja style
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by Makrokosmos12 »

IAmSoldieR wrote:I demand a final playoff . Garja style


The first one to drop his opponents gets the spot.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Post by giveuanxiety »

I demand a trial by combat!
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WHAT does check your stove means? And how do you do it?
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Post by Hazza54321 »

I do believe there should be a playoff, soldier and wicked are just left out for no reason at all
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

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Post by Cometk »

nimanoe wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:They will stay banned indefinitely until further notice. I wouldn't expect that position to change soon - possibly ever, if they show no remorse and continue attempting to cheat.

Thanks for the reply!

I'm not really familiar with this community (I come from AoE2), so maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't it be better to ban them for a set amount of time (or x amount of tournaments)? That way everyone knows what's up with the situation and the players can decide if it's worth for them to continue playing. When they are banned for an undefined amount of time (possibly forever) I don't think there is much incentive for them to stick around as there future is really unsure. I think it would also be good to have a precedent for future cases, so before they commit to something like this they roughly know the punishment. Also having a set punishment would prevent anyone from saying that the admins are biased in favor or against any of the players, if this happens again and the players get a different punishment.

In CS:GO there was a team that got banned for match-fixing and they got banned for an indefinite time as well, this leaves the whole community unsure about the future of the players and every month or so their is another cry from the community to Valve to unban them. I think most people in the community would agree that Valve handled the case pretty poorly and should have set an amount of time that they were banned or should've banned them forever. Since then, the tournament organizers have come together with players and made a rulebook that says that match-fixing or cheating will result in a 2-year ban. This is widely regarded as a good change, just because it gives clarity to everyone: the players know they are allowed to play again after 2 years and can act accordingly, the fans know and won't have to keep protesting to unban players and the tournament organizers won't get backfire for allowing the players to return to early or for not allowing them to return.

Now, this scene isn't nearly as big as CS:GO, but I think it's a good example of why clarity regarding this issue is better for everyone.

A really good point, and welcome to the forums.

As a tournament administrator and the prescriber of the indefinite ban in this case, it's important I explain my reasons why. First, I should say that I am actually a fan of concrete bans and want to steer the precedent of ESOC tournament moderation away from indefinite bans. The last instance of a tournament ban was actually a concrete ban and reads as follows: "Player is disqualified from the ESOC Autumn Championship 2018 and Second Chance and will be debarred from entering the next ESOC event." In that instance, we had caught the player in an early stage of the tournament before much damage had been done. Of course, that doesn't speak to the propensity the player had for continuing to play the tournament, and of the damage that could've been done had we caught on to it too late. Still, it was a relatively low-profile incident, the player understood what he did was wrong, and has had a credibly positive impact on the community since the case (and before it too).

The indefinite ban was preferable in this situation because it is the highest profile incident of cheating in AoE3, probably ever. I don't like playing things up but this was 1) for an all-expenses-paid trip to England, 2) the most prize money since WCG, and 3) a lot of prestige. I don't need to list ad infinitum why basically stealing all of these things is bad, but this match had a lot, and a lot of gravity to it.

In addition, I believe that it is the onus of the players to prove that they are capable of accepting what they did and committing to playing earnestly in the future. As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, an apology alone doesn't cut it, but in my opinion it is certainly the first step. After that comes time and it certainly isn't an easy path back to acceptance but it is definitely possible. Plenty of top players have been involved dramas and bans in the past but at the end of the day they're still here and we're all having fun playing together. Until that demonstrably occurs, there is no reason they should be allowed to come back and play in competitive events. I personally maintain hope that Tit and kynesie will be able to move forward from this and continue to honestly enjoy the game with the rest of us.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by Dolan »

@Cometk

How about the possibility of having playoffs to decide who goes to the LAN event based on merit, not automatic replacement of disqualified players?

If the problem is logistical, then maybe consult with Escape for a solution.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by robo »

Dolan wrote:@Cometk

How about the possibility of having playoffs to decide who goes to the LAN event based on merit, not automatic replacement of disqualified players?

If the problem is logistical, then maybe consult with Escape for a solution.


Implying that we weren't involved in the decision?
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by deleted_user »

It's just Dolan
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by nimanoe »

Cometk wrote:A really good point, and welcome to the forums.

As a tournament administrator and the prescriber of the indefinite ban in this case, it's important I explain my reasons why. First, I should say that I am actually a fan of concrete bans and want to steer the precedent of ESOC tournament moderation away from indefinite bans. The last instance of a tournament ban was actually a concrete ban and reads as follows: "Player is disqualified from the ESOC Autumn Championship 2018 and Second Chance and will be debarred from entering the next ESOC event." In that instance, we had caught the player in an early stage of the tournament before much damage had been done. Of course, that doesn't speak to the propensity the player had for continuing to play the tournament, and of the damage that could've been done had we caught on to it too late. Still, it was a relatively low-profile incident, the player understood what he did was wrong, and has had a credibly positive impact on the community since the case (and before it too).

The indefinite ban was preferable in this situation because it is the highest profile incident of cheating in AoE3, probably ever. I don't like playing things up but this was 1) for an all-expenses-paid trip to England, 2) the most prize money since WCG, and 3) a lot of prestige. I don't need to list ad infinitum why basically stealing all of these things is bad, but this match had a lot, and a lot of gravity to it.

In addition, I believe that it is the onus of the players to prove that they are capable of accepting what they did and committing to playing earnestly in the future. As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, an apology alone doesn't cut it, but in my opinion it is certainly the first step. After that comes time and it certainly isn't an easy path back to acceptance but it is definitely possible. Plenty of top players have been involved dramas and bans in the past but at the end of the day they're still here and we're all having fun playing together. Until that demonstrably occurs, there is no reason they should be allowed to come back and play in competitive events. I personally maintain hope that Tit and kynesie will be able to move forward from this and continue to honestly enjoy the game with the rest of us.

Thanks for your elaborate response and your reasoning why you went for an indefinite ban.
I can see why you went for it, even though you haven't totally convinced me.
Maybe it would be an idea to set a date for a reviewing of the case? That way it's not definitive, but the players know that if they are being accepted by the community by then there is a chance for them to get unbanned, so they can do everything in their power to change the community's mind. And for you and the rest of the staff it's nothing definitive, if you feel like they haven't redeemed themselves, you can set a new date. The downside is that once the date for reviewing closes, it could split the community up, but that could happen in the current situation as well, just now there is more transparancy, which I think is a good thing.
I think this would clear a lot of things up already and the involved players and the community know that there is no point asking for them to get unbanned before the case gets reviewed again.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by Dolan »

robo wrote:Implying that we weren't involved in the decision?
Not implying anything, I had no idea if anyone from Escape except for Interjection actually has a user here. Since your profiles aren't marked with any particular label or badge. So I didn't know if anyone from Escape reads the forums or follows these discussions.

So what would the insurmountable problem be with having a playoff between the three mentioned players, instead of automatically replacing the disqualified players?
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by Dolan »

deleted_user wrote:It's just Dolan
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by deleted_user »

Dolan wrote:
deleted_user wrote:It's just Dolan
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Now you're getting it.
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by Sargsyan »

deleted_user wrote:
Dolan wrote:
deleted_user wrote:It's just Dolan
Image

Now you're getting it.

[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by deleted_user »

Sargsyan wrote:
deleted_user wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Now you're getting it.

[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Stop, you're getting it too much
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by Sargsyan »

deleted_user wrote:
Sargsyan wrote:
Show hidden quotes

[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Stop, you're getting it too much

Image
krichk wrote:For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge Challenger_Marco
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

{Speaking as a fan - not part of ESOC Team}
I'm sure that ESOC as a collective will review the length/removal of the ban at some point between after the Grand finals of the LAN and before the next 'Seasonal' tournament, Until that point we applaud ESOC for their actions and consider this closed!
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Re: NWC Tournament Disqualifications - Tit and kynesie

Post by sebnan12 »

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:{Speaking as a fan - not part of ESOC Team}
I'm sure that ESOC as a collective will review the length/removal of the ban at some point between after the Grand finals of the LAN and before the next 'Seasonal' tournament, Until that point we applaud ESOC for their actions and consider this closed!

no. shud be more than that or ill be going riot.
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