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Italy Garja
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04 Sep 2019, 13:35

Iro are mostly fine I'd say. The only thing that is problematic sometimes is the fast age rush which is still basically RE level if 100w start+ a good treasure.
If we ever need to nerf iro probably we should consider removing the fast age to colo as any other change to nerf the rush is more impactful onthe rest of the game. Now Iro can also age at 4.10 with the wise woman so fast age up is not so needed.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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04 Sep 2019, 13:44

Garja wrote:Iro are mostly fine I'd say. The only thing that is problematic sometimes is the fast age rush which is still basically RE level if 100w start+ a good treasure.
If we ever need to nerf iro probably we should consider removing the fast age to colo as any other change to nerf the rush is more impactful onthe rest of the game. Now Iro can also age at 4.10 with the wise woman so fast age up is not so needed.

Yea sometimes even before 4min lol so removing fast age up won't fix shit.
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Italy Garja
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04 Sep 2019, 13:53

The rush with the wise woman is just slightly worse and yet enough to make it reasonably holdable.
The fast age rush however is probably simply not holdable for some specific civs.
So yes there is a big difference between the two and fast age up removal would definetely be impactful.
Sub 4min wise woman age up is rare and usually you don't have a shipment ready anyway.
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New Zealand zoom
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09 Sep 2019, 16:18

Kaiserklein wrote:
zoom wrote:I think Iroquois is in a decent spot, right now, and I'm not planning on focusing on the civilization, for EP7. Limiting scope and making priorities is important. I'm keeping an open mind, though, in case I see something convincing.

No offense, but "priorities" include stuff like buffing grenadiers or halbs, or making iro foundry 200w? But not balancing iro, easily one of the strongest civs?
Absolutely – I consider buffing extremely unviable core units a priority! Despite my constant rambling about it, this year, did you still not realize? Given your response, it seems you've made the mistake of assuming your opinion to be universally known truth. You're no Garja!

If Iroquois is indeed one of the strongest civilizations, it were a priority, too. I am simply saying that I'm unconvinced. Six months ago, many players would have called it silly to suggest that it is. Not me, though – I've thought the civilization underrated for years.

Let's poll it, to begin with!
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New Zealand zoom
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09 Sep 2019, 16:26

Goodspeed wrote:Something to note is that the community lags behind a fair bit when it comes to noticing whether a civ is too strong, compared to top players. Consensus among them should be enough.
Agreed. Another thing to note is limited sample size. I'll ask about, too!
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New Zealand zoom
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09 Sep 2019, 16:40

umeu wrote:
zoom wrote:
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For making the Mantlet and the Ram more viable. The fact that it doesn't affect the Light Cannon before Industrial age (and thus likely not at all, since you'd build it with a Travois, regardless), is great!


It doesnt really make those units more viable though.
Perhaps. What it really doesn't do, is make the Light Cannon any more viable, though. Will consider further buffs to the units.
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09 Sep 2019, 16:41

Cometk wrote:i would let them show themselves as broken first before nerfing anything
Overpowered is plenty.
:chinese:
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10 Sep 2019, 15:03

zoom wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
zoom wrote:I think Iroquois is in a decent spot, right now, and I'm not planning on focusing on the civilization, for EP7. Limiting scope and making priorities is important. I'm keeping an open mind, though, in case I see something convincing.

No offense, but "priorities" include stuff like buffing grenadiers or halbs, or making iro foundry 200w? But not balancing iro, easily one of the strongest civs?
Absolutely – I consider buffing extremely unviable core units a priority! Despite my constant rambling about it, this year, did you still not realize? Given your response, it seems you've made the mistake of assuming your opinion to be universally known truth. You're no Garja!

If Iroquois is indeed one of the strongest civilizations, it were a priority, too. I am simply saying that I'm unconvinced. Six months ago, many players would have called it silly to suggest that it is. Not me, though – I've thought the civilization underrated for years.

Let's poll it, to begin with!

Buffing unviable units is cute, but I think the priority should be balancing the patch. But oh well.
I guess we'll see what the poll says. Pretty sure atm most high level players agree iro is super strong, though.
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sirmusket: compare that to ur piece of shit face/height
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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10 Sep 2019, 15:33

Kaiserklein wrote:
zoom wrote:
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Absolutely – I consider buffing extremely unviable core units a priority! Despite my constant rambling about it, this year, did you still not realize? Given your response, it seems you've made the mistake of assuming your opinion to be universally known truth. You're no Garja!

If Iroquois is indeed one of the strongest civilizations, it were a priority, too. I am simply saying that I'm unconvinced. Six months ago, many players would have called it silly to suggest that it is. Not me, though – I've thought the civilization underrated for years.

Let's poll it, to begin with!

Buffing unviable units is cute, but I think the priority should be balancing the patch. But oh well.
I guess we'll see what the poll says. Pretty sure atm most high level players agree iro is super strong, though.

I think they don't.
Most people just go either fast age up all in rush 4/7/6/6 (prince) or for passive semi ff (5v/600c) toma semi which is bad most of the time .
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Italy Garja
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25 Sep 2019, 13:46

So one thing we should test is nerfing aennas slightly.
In the end the only thing really over the top (unbeatable with under certain conditions) is the fast rush with aennas. Fast rush with tomas is more holdable as that unit has an easily viable counter and also it's not great per cost early on.
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25 Sep 2019, 20:16

Garja wrote:So one thing we should test is nerfing aennas slightly.
In the end the only thing really over the top (unbeatable with under certain conditions) is the fast rush with aennas. Fast rush with tomas is more holdable as that unit has an easily viable counter and also it's not great per cost early on.

No. Aennas aren't an issue at all, the age 3 units are (FP/Mr) so if anything nerf these units.

I'd nerf the WC aura as it nerfs both colo and fortress play which are both too strong.
Fortress is better tho (you overestimate agressive play in general).
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Italy Garja
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25 Sep 2019, 21:04

Aennas are the exact and only reason why Iro needs a nerf. Age3 is indeed strong but not to be nerfed (can nerf MR rr% but just for consistency).
WC aura is too much of a nerf. Iro units are supposed to be stronger than most just like Sioux units are (or TWC civs in general units as the elite upgrade is 25%).
I don't understimate aggressive play. The standard fast age rush with age1 TP is not holdable by China and shits on most euro civs. Semi FF is good but it's like China/Ger/Sioux level, actually less lame since no huge power spike but just steady good play.
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France Kaiserklein
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25 Sep 2019, 22:26

Well regardless of aennas, you just get insane units in fortress. Both fps and musket riders are ridiculous, and the warchief. And a ton of good unit shipments
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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26 Sep 2019, 00:11

Iro semi FF is indeed Sioux/china/ger level, that is to say Op lol.
And rushing against China is actually the best way to lose (ask kaiser).
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26 Sep 2019, 00:20

Well it's just that if you're stuck in colo you won't ever win vs fort china as iro. But if you can kill china with the rush (though I doubt it's possible) then it's fine obviously
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sirmusket: compare that to ur piece of shit face/height
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Italy Garja
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26 Sep 2019, 14:00

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Iro semi FF is indeed Sioux/china/ger level, that is to say Op lol.
And rushing against China is actually the best way to lose (ask kaiser).

I expect those civs to be good in age3 and Iro are actually slightly less good. It's like expecting Brit or Japan to be strong in colonial.

As for Iro vs China you gotta rush well and with a TP in age1. Honestly there isn't much China can do vs that, even walling and sending shipments, etc. eventually lose. The thing about the semi FF is that if the opponent plays well China peak mass in fortress is more than the Iro peak mass. And since those games are decided by one big fight China ends ups winning.
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Italy Garja
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09 Oct 2019, 16:36

For the record, aenna with WC aura don't get 2 shooted by the TC which is insane.
I mean, it again goes to show that 110hp for a cheap infantry unit is just too much.
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10 Oct 2019, 08:00

Garja wrote:For the record, aenna with WC aura don't get 2 shooted by the TC which is insane.
I mean, it again goes to show that 110hp for a cheap infantry unit is just too much.

And still, we don't see people massing aennas because age 3 is better.
Nerfing the aura is the solution.
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Italy Garja
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10 Oct 2019, 11:20

people do play colonial wtf are you talking about?
aura would also do the trick but it would nerf units that are legit strong and not too strong.
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10 Oct 2019, 13:51

I think nerfing the aura is legit, but it sucks for tomahawks basically. The unit isn't super strong even now with 15% hp boost. Dunno about kanyas, they're not too strong overall, but they probably tank too much at range with 30% rr and +15% hp. All other iro units would be more balanced with less aura though.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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10 Oct 2019, 20:04

Kaiserklein wrote:
zoom wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Absolutely – I consider buffing extremely unviable core units a priority! Despite my constant rambling about it, this year, did you still not realize? Given your response, it seems you've made the mistake of assuming your opinion to be universally known truth. You're no Garja!

If Iroquois is indeed one of the strongest civilizations, it were a priority, too. I am simply saying that I'm unconvinced. Six months ago, many players would have called it silly to suggest that it is. Not me, though – I've thought the civilization underrated for years.

Let's poll it, to begin with!

Buffing unviable units is cute, but I think the priority should be balancing the patch. But oh well.
I guess we'll see what the poll says. Pretty sure atm most high level players agree iro is super strong, though.
I agree—and it is! That's why it's been the sole focus for years, and why I'm including inter-civilization balance changes, with EP7. Again: How did you miss this!? Nevertheless, it explains your confusion.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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10 Oct 2019, 20:09

I'm fine with nerfing the aura from 15% to 10%. I only suggested the Musket Rider nerf because it was my impression that players consider only Fortress Iroquois to be overpowered. Garja seems convinced that Colonial is deserving of a nerf, too. Regardless, it's undeniably the case that Iroquois is a particularly strong Colonial civilization. Nerfing only the Aenna isn't really an option, but both it and the Forest Prowler (or the Musket Rider) is an option – as is the aura nerf.

I'm starting to question nerfing the Musket Rider, in the first place. Although it is strong, in terms of base statistics, Iroquois cavalry already scales poorly.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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Italy Garja
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10 Oct 2019, 21:12

aenna should be the primary candidate for a nerf because:
- rush is where iros are the most OP, in the very sense that some civs are hopeless vs a fast age rush with a TP in the discovery age. The civ is pretty well rounded but within acceptable boundaries, aside from the rush.
- aenna is the only infantry unit together with jans that doesn't die in 2 TC shots. The unit's stats are ridicolous for just 100f.

The aura will fix the TC problem but will also make all other units, weaker. We already tested 10% aura and:
- tomahawk become really crap because they cost more than musks and have absymal utter shit ranged attack;
- kanya become also bad both in colonial and in fortress.
- iro fortress units are not really much better than those of sioux or Aztecs. TWC units simply come with 25% elite upgrade.

In the end changing the aura will have some benefits, obvisouly, but will make Iro meh again. Civ will be overall decent but really won't shine at anything, even in fortress.
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11 Oct 2019, 17:07

Garja wrote:aenna should be the primary candidate for a nerf because:
- rush is where iros are the most OP, in the very sense that some civs are hopeless vs a fast age rush with a TP in the discovery age. The civ is pretty well rounded but within acceptable boundaries, aside from the rush.
- aenna is the only infantry unit together with jans that doesn't die in 2 TC shots. The unit's stats are ridicolous for just 100f.

The aura will fix the TC problem but will also make all other units, weaker. We already tested 10% aura and:
- tomahawk become really crap because they cost more than musks and have absymal utter shit ranged attack;
- kanya become also bad both in colonial and in fortress.
- iro fortress units are not really much better than those of sioux or Aztecs. TWC units simply come with 25% elite upgrade.

In the end changing the aura will have some benefits, obvisouly, but will make Iro meh again. Civ will be overall decent but really won't shine at anything, even in fortress.

1) Rush isn't that scary honestly without an age 1 TP. With an age 1 TP it's basically RE Iro, but same goes for semi ff. The issue is the age 1 TP not the rush(fixed crates would fix that but w/e).

2) You're supposed to focus the war chief with the TC. He either dies or goes back and then you can kill aennas in 2 hits. Nerfing the aura would be a nice solution too.

3) Tomahawks are weak indeed but you can't have it all lol. You already have insane skirm/goon (and aennas according to you), that's enough. Also tomas scale very well with upgrades.

4) Kanyas are fine and they don't become "bad" because all the units will be nerfed.

5) FP and MR are insane with the WC aura, which is why the WC aura should be nerfed (or both the MR and the FP, which is the same).
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Italy Garja
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11 Oct 2019, 17:51

1) Yes, semi FF is also like iro level but semi FF, as strong as it is, it's nowhere near the level of OPness of the rush.
2) I agree on that, but the unit is still the only infantry unit with jans that doesn't die in 2 TC shots. This is simply not acceptable. We nerfed sepoy largely because of this (or at least it was a significant side effect) and we are just ignoring the same thing for a unit that is 3x more spammable in the same time frame.
Aside from TC shooting, 110hp is insane for a 100f unit. For comparison, lbow is 95hp, cetan is 100hp (+10 hp from RE), yumi is 100hp, xbow is 100hp, etc. Considering that there are no evident other drawbacks (even the base damage isn't that low because of 1.5 rof) the unit is clearly too good.
3) Tomahawk will be trash. They're ok now because their ranged damage is trash but at least they have good hp. But with -5% (consider scaling) they will be meh.
4) Kanya turn from being maybe a bit too good (well, mostly in comparison to huss who have 20% rr) to being quite bad. 100f 75w is close to the cost of huss and the unit is strictly worse.
5) FP are good for sure, MR are nothing special.

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