Beta Aztecs Discussion

[zoom]

Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Aztecs, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– War Chief cover mode added [revert]
– Puma Spearman hand attack light infantry multiplier increased from 3 to 3.5
– Coyote Runner hand attack increased from 18 to 20
– "Coyote Combat" shipment decreased from +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +10% Coyote Runner speed to +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +4% Coyote Runner speed
– "10 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to 9 Macehualtins
– "9 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to INFINITE 8 Macehualtins
– Arrow Knight population cost reduced from 2 to 1
– Eagle Runner Knight speed increased from 6 to 6.5; ranged resistance decreased from 30% to 20%
– Jaguar Prowl Knight hand attack increased from 18 to 20; hitpoints increased from 230 to 240

The following changes are currently being considered:

– "Heal Dance" no longer affects the dead War Chief
– Puma Spearman "Siege Trooper" tag removed
– Skull Knight hitpoints increased from 300 to 340
– "5 Coyote Runners" shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners
– "Temple of Centeotl Support" shipment increased from +25% Macehualtin hitpoints to +25% hitpoints and +0.25 “Heavy Infantry” and “Light Cavalry” multipliers for Macehualtins
– "Temple of Xipe Totec Support" shipment increased from +20% Coyote Runner hand attack to +20% hand attack and +0.1 ranged resistance for Coyote Runners

[Mitoe]

– "Coyote Combat" shipment decreased from +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +10% Coyote Runner speed to +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +4% Coyote Runner speed

IMO, this is a pointless nerf--I would leave this untouched.

– "5 Coyote Runners" shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners
– "10 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to 9 Macehualtins
– "9 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to INFINITE 8 Macehualtins

I don't think there's anything wrong with the military shipments right now. Infinite 8 Mace seems like a dangerous change.

[Hazza54321]

Agreed with both. Also we just gonna ignore the fact of the broken wc again xD

[Cometk]

Agreed with both. Also we just gonna ignore the fact of the broken wc again xD

cover mode bug was solved. it no longer exists on EP7 beta

[Hazza54321]

What about revival abuse.

[Cometk]

What about revival abuse.

shouldn't be _as_ problematic as when it had original speed/attack + the doubled cover mode HP

[Hazza54321]

Still gonna be problematic. Why is it even a thing. Healing dance is clearly not meant to be abused in this way. Now u just revive him in the middle of the army and put in covermode with the 35% speed card and just go afk.

[lordraphael]

"Heal Dance" no longer affects the War Chief while incapacitated

l2r hazza

[Cometk]

wow, even i missed that one!

edit: ah, that change isn't implemented in EP7.0.0.0 beta, but it is one being considered, and one possible to make thanks to Kevsoft's unhardcode patch. if explorer heal dance revival is still problematic @Hazza54321, it seems like we have the solution!

[[Armag] diarouga]

"Coyote Combat" shipment decreased from +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +10% Coyote Runner speed to +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +4% Coyote Runner speed

I don't understand the speed nerf. Currently the coyotes are very slow, and you can't really catch raids, or even the Indian monks, so I'm not sure this is deserved.

- "5 Coyote Runners" shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners
- "10 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to 9 Macehualtins
- "9 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to INFINITE 8 Macehualtins

I really dislike these one. By design, Aztec has great mace shipments, and a bad coyote shipment. Thus, you usually have to train coyotes/pikes and ship the maces, and it's fine. I'd really like these 3 to be removed.

– Puma Spearman "Siege Trooper" tag removed

This one would make sense. Maybe lower the siege attack to compensate.

[deleted_user]

I am a bit disappointed while it's a known fact that while everyone knows explorer revival thing is a bug, it's not fixed. heal dance meant to heal weak hp units not to revive explorer itself I think, biggest proof is having warchief dance, which originally resurrects explorer to firepit. I hope this bug will be fixed and ah forgot to say, please remove 40k hp walls shit card for teamgames, not interesting to play 3 hours of games

[Garja]

Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Aztecs, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– War Chief cover mode added [revert]
– Puma Spearman hand attack light infantry multiplier increased from 3 to 3.5 I only agree with this if that's the multiplier for euro pikes. Otherwise it makes no sense. Puma already destroy coyotemen
– Coyote Runner hand attack increased from 18 to 20 among all things to buff attack makes the least sense. Unit is already damage focused (like ulhans). Many units won't actually attack due to pathing,making the buff not so great. Attack dance stacks on this buff likely causing balance problems.
– "5 Coyote Runners" shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners buffing the unit and also buffing the shipment is something to be careful with.
– "Coyote Combat" shipment decreased from +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +10% Coyote Runner speed to +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +4% Coyote Runner speed Idk about this. It can makes sense but sounds like a random change.
– "10 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to 9 Macehualtins ok
– "9 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to INFINITE 8 Macehualtins fancy infinite stuff of course. Just make it 8 maces?
– Arrow Knight population cost reduced from 2 to 1 ok, please also increase unit speed to 4.
– Eagle Runner Knight speed increased from 6 to 6.5; ranged resistance decreased from 30% to 20% ok, unit had to be reworked somehow. Might consider changing the special multiplier skirms get against the ERK tho.
– Jaguar Prowl Knight hand attack increased from 18 to 20; hitpoints increased from 230 to 240 I can straight up tell you this buff is excessive, but let's see how this goes.

The following changes are currently being considered:

– "Heal Dance" no longer affects the War Chief while incapacitated questionable, but ok I understand the reason.
– Puma Spearman "Siege Trooper" tag removed this is such a blunder tho. Pumas deserve that tag as they're completely intended to be the "petard type" unit for Aztecs. Can't remove the tag without nerfing their siege a bit
– Skull Knight hitpoints increased from 300 to 340 This is random. On what is this based? The unit is not underwhelming in HP or attack. If anything just standardize its speed to 4.5 like dopps, samurai, etc.
– "Temple of Centeotl Support" shipment increased from +25% Macehualtin hitpoints to +25% hitpoints and +0.25 “Heavy Infantry” and “Light Cavalry” multipliers for Macehualtins maces already destroy HI, like literally destroy. They also do fine vs goon type units when in range The problem in fact is just the range. So if you really want to make this card and the unit itself a bit better then just add +2 range or something to the card while also nerfing it somehow to compensate (e.g. less units delivered or less HP granted).
– "Temple of Xipe Totec Support" shipment increased from +20% Coyote Runner hand attack to +20% hand attack and +0.1 ranged resistance for Coyote Runners Again, can't just buff the card without compensation. The card is already good at the moment. Also after buffing base damage you clearly want to have a different bonus on this card, ideally HP buff. 10% HP and +0.1rr makes more sense.

Overall I'm just going to tell you that simply buffing Aztecs units will result in a complete balance disaster as all units are already quite good. The aim should be a rework of the units, making them more playable and not a simple net buff. 0.2rr coyotemen will be a pain in the ass to counter in age3 and later.

[Hazza54321]

Honestly agree with +2 range with that card too

[deleted_user0]

I am a bit disappointed while it's a known fact that while everyone knows explorer revival thing is a bug, it's not fixed. heal dance meant to heal weak hp units not to revive explorer itself I think, biggest proof is having warchief dance, which originally resurrects explorer to firepit. I hope this bug will be fixed and ah forgot to say, please remove 40k hp walls shit card for teamgames, not interesting to play 3 hours of games

ROFL... breeze complaining about walls, now I have seen it all. I can die peacefully!

[WickedCossack]

Agree with the other players re 9&10 mace shipments.

Yes they are very good and not in line with some unit shipment options for other civs in age 2 but it's important to have some asymmetrical balance. I remember when the AS patch changed 5 coss to 4 coss, not a fan!

Arrow knight pop reduction, that's a good change.

[zoom]

As expected, the changes to the Aztecs, and the Chinese, seem to be some of the most polarizing. I wish to explain them, to begin with.

The reason that these two civilizations are receiving such focus, initially, is that they are in the most urgent need of intra-civilization (or "viability") balancing. The internal unit balance, for Aztecs, is the most shambolic of any civilization. We have:

– The Coyote Runner, which is a weak unit, relying on the early relative strength of the Macehualtin and Puma Spearman, as well as the problematic "Coyote Combat" shipment, with its questionable and ridiculous speed increase, to compensate for the Coyote Runner's weak statistics. Not to mention, its Colonial Age shipment is underviable, forcing one-dimensional build-orders.
– The Macehualtin, which is a powerful unit through the early Fortress Age, after which it becomes increasingly less viable. Not to mention its Colonial Age shipments are overviable, forcing one-dimensional build-orders. The INFINITE 8 Macehualtins shipment is a somewhat experimental change, with some intiguing aspects: It is relatively weak; it has precedent, within the civilization; it offers an option to INFINITE 600c; it offers an option to exclude "9 Macehualtins", freeing up an additional deck slot, at a trade-off.
– The Puma Spearman, which while a stronger Pikeman, gets completely shut down by Minutemen, and the Colonial Militia shipment, while failing to counter light infantry enough to keep the mirror match-up from deteriorating into a mono-unit Coyote fuck-fest.
– The Arrow Knight, which is a good unit, statistically speaking, but excessively population inefficient, and suffering from atrocious firing animations.
– The Eagle Runner Knight, which is an immensely powerful unit, that only gets better as the game progresses, breaking both the counter-system, and Aztecs' unit viability, to a significant degree, while being unreasonably slow.
– The Jaguar Prowl Knight, which is practically unviable, on its own merits, made even less useful by the prominence of the Eagle Runner Knight, and – to an extent – the Puma Spearman.

The expectation is for these changes to make the civilization a little stronger, overall, since it also seems desirable it were buffed. As usual, I am happy to update the changes to improve their quality and reception, throughout the beta. I just wish to test them, to begin with. Still, it is clear that the civilization has certain fundamental problems, and warrants more changes than most, overall.

Also, I wish to emphasize the following sentiment:

I don't mind any opinion; only the attitude of unreasonably jumping to conclusions. If you think a certain change poses a balance issue, please try to establish whether it is the case, during the beta. Please abstain from assuming speculation to be fact. I don't think that it's constructive or reasonable – nor is the delusion that the initial beta iteration, is the final full release. I'm concerned with making the patch more successful; not less. The beta will be developed with that in mind, so there's little reason to despair, let alone at such an early stage. Whatever your opinion of any given change, I am only suggesting that you test it, with minimal bias. It seems in everyone's best interest.

[zoom]

Also, I think we should discuss Wall and Water dances, as well as the following suggestion:

– "Heal Dance" no longer affects the War Chief while incapacitated

[deleted_user]

Also, I think we should discuss Wall and Water dances, as well as the following suggestion:

– "Heal Dance" no longer affects the War Chief while incapacitated

I think water dance is fine, as canoes are nerfed, aztec's composition is already hurted with it.
About the wall dance ; Please fix this as soon as possible, not in mood to play 3 hour aztec 3v3s anymore. I think possible fix would be to nerf the wall card hp by %25 and increase the wall build time by %100 once you send the card.

[deleted_user0]

– "Heal Dance" no longer affects the War Chief while incapacitated

If cover mode is returned, this should be a given. No debate whatsoever.

[[Armag] diarouga]

- "5 Coyote Runners" shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners
- "10 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to 9 Macehualtins
- "9 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to INFINITE 8 Macehualtins

So, can we revert these 3?

[Hazza54321]

Yeah fuck those

[zoom]

– "Coyote Combat" shipment decreased from +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +10% Coyote Runner speed to +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +4% Coyote Runner speed

IMO, this is a pointless nerf--I would leave this untouched.

– "5 Coyote Runners" shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners
– "10 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to 9 Macehualtins
– "9 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to INFINITE 8 Macehualtins

I don't think there's anything wrong with the military shipments right now. Infinite 8 Mace seems like a dangerous change.

How so? It facilitates the attack buff making the unit more viable and decreasing balance issues, with the added bonus of no longer making it faster than the vast majority of cavalry – all without significantly decreasing the shipment's viability. Very pointless, indeed! Still, as usual, I'm open to reverting the change, if I see a convincing argument, or it proves too unpopular.

In my opinion, it's wrong that the Macehualtin shipments are excessively viable, and the 5 Coyote shipment excessively unviable. I do think that INFINITE 8 Macehualtins is a little risky; and I'll be considering changing it to a regular shipment, later on.

[zoom]

Agreed with both. Also we just gonna ignore the fact of the broken wc again xD

Broken, how? The cover mode bug has been fixed, and Heal Dance bug is likely to follow suit.

[zoom]

What about revival abuse.

Please read the OP, and my above post.

[zoom]

Still gonna be problematic. Why is it even a thing. Healing dance is clearly not meant to be abused in this way. Now u just revive him in the middle of the army and put in covermode with the 35% speed card and just go afk.

Absolutely agreed!