Beta Aztecs Discussion

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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by zoom »

deleted_user wrote:I am a bit disappointed while it's a known fact that while everyone knows explorer revival thing is a bug, it's not fixed. heal dance meant to heal weak hp units not to revive explorer itself I think, biggest proof is having warchief dance, which originally resurrects explorer to firepit. I hope this bug will be fixed and ah forgot to say, please remove 40k hp walls shit card for teamgames, not interesting to play 3 hours of games
I'm very interested in learning how players feel about Town Dance and Water Dance, respectively. Until then, I won't be considering changing either one.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by zoom »

WickedCossack wrote:Agree with the other players re 9&10 mace shipments.

Yes they are very good and not in line with some unit shipment options for other civs in age 2 but it's important to have some asymmetrical balance. I remember when the AS patch changed 5 coss to 4 coss, not a fan!

Arrow knight pop reduction, that's a good change.
Reverting the Macehualtin shipments is an option, to me. The important thing is that the Coyote shipment is viable, and that it doesn't cause a balance issue.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

zoom wrote:
WickedCossack wrote:Agree with the other players re 9&10 mace shipments.

Yes they are very good and not in line with some unit shipment options for other civs in age 2 but it's important to have some asymmetrical balance. I remember when the AS patch changed 5 coss to 4 coss, not a fan!

Arrow knight pop reduction, that's a good change.
Reverting the Macehualtin shipments is an option, to me. The important thing is that the Coyote shipment is viable, and that it doesn't cause a balance issue.

Revert the coyote change too. 5 coyote is totally viable, I remember Sam won an Aztec mirror sending 5 coyotes instead of 10 maces, and almost every Aztec player has it in deck. There's just no reason to buff this shipment.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by Hazza54321 »

zoom wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:What about revival abuse.
Please read the OP, and my above post.

Please read the rest of the thread
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by Cometk »

5 coyotes was viable, and still included in almost every aztec deck. 5 coyo would still be viable to send on ep7 especially considering the general attack buff to coyotes
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by edeholland »

I really dislike these one. By design, Aztec has great mace shipments, and a bad coyote shipment.
Revert the coyote change too. 5 coyote is totally viable, I remember Sam won an Aztec mirror sending 5 coyotes instead of 10 maces, and almost every Aztec player has it in deck. There's just no reason to buff this shipment.
:huh: I don't get it. Is the shipment bad and viable?
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

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Its good in niche situations
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by zoom »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:"Coyote Combat" shipment decreased from +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +10% Coyote Runner speed to +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +4% Coyote Runner speed

I don't understand the speed nerf. Currently the coyotes are very slow, and you can't really catch raids, or even the Indian monks, so I'm not sure this is deserved.

- "5 Coyote Runners" shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners
- "10 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to 9 Macehualtins
- "9 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to INFINITE 8 Macehualtins

I really dislike these one. By design, Aztec has great mace shipments, and a bad coyote shipment. Thus, you usually have to train coyotes/pikes and ship the maces, and it's fine. I'd really like these 3 to be removed.

– Puma Spearman "Siege Trooper" tag removed

This one would make sense. Maybe lower the siege attack to compensate.
The Coyote Runner is not very slow. It's 6.25; almost as fast as most cavalry, and faster than both the Brahmin Monk, and the Eagle Runner Knight (a psuedo light-cavalry unit, mind you). Even with +4% speed, Coyote Combat gives the unit 6.5 speed (same as the Cuirassier, Iron Flail, Lancer and Meteor Hammer, among others). I'm more than happy with the extent to which I've explained the reasoning for the change, in other posts, ITT. Please see those, too.

It's most likely not by design, but by balance. Still, if it is by design, it's bad design; shipping and training different unit types should both be viable; forcing players to train one unit and ship the other is limiting and not fine. It makes for one-dimensional play without variety. Leaving the Macehualtin shipments and simply buffing 5 Coyote Runners is an option, but would likely be overpowered. Consider presenting an argument as to why the changes are bad, if you want them to be undone. Dislike is not a logical argument.

I'd rather not standardize the Puma Spearman.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by zoom »

Hazza54321 wrote:
zoom wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:What about revival abuse.
Please read the OP, and my above post.

Please read the rest of the thread
I did. I only saw you crying mistakedly and posting one-liners without contributing anything to the discussion.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by zoom »

Cometk wrote:5 coyotes was viable, and still included in almost every aztec deck. 5 coyo would still be viable to send on ep7 especially considering the general attack buff to coyotes
The point is that it isn't viable as an option to the other unit shipments. It's sometimes viable after they have all been sent. It should be similarly viable to the other unit shipments, which should be balanced accordingly. I'm yet to see a single argument against this – let alone a convincing one, so step up your game.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by Hazza54321 »

Alright. Continue buffing useless crap and implementing terrible changes that dont fit the game at all. Remove me from these useless discussions as you never listen to anyone and im clearly just wasting time.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

edeholland wrote:
I really dislike these one. By design, Aztec has great mace shipments, and a bad coyote shipment.
Revert the coyote change too. 5 coyote is totally viable, I remember Sam won an Aztec mirror sending 5 coyotes instead of 10 maces, and almost every Aztec player has it in deck. There's just no reason to buff this shipment.
:huh: I don't get it. Is the shipment bad and viable?

Yes. It's a bad unit shipment, still a unit shipment and unit shipments are good.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

Hazza54321 wrote:Alright. Continue buffing useless crap and implementing terrible changes that dont fit the game at all. Remove me from these useless discussions as you never listen to anyone and im clearly just wasting time.
Because you've clearly spent so much time typing thoughtful, thorough responses here :huh:
Your opinion is valued, even if you don't deserve it.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

zoom wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:"Coyote Combat" shipment decreased from +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +10% Coyote Runner speed to +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +4% Coyote Runner speed

I don't understand the speed nerf. Currently the coyotes are very slow, and you can't really catch raids, or even the Indian monks, so I'm not sure this is deserved.

- "5 Coyote Runners" shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners
- "10 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to 9 Macehualtins
- "9 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to INFINITE 8 Macehualtins

I really dislike these one. By design, Aztec has great mace shipments, and a bad coyote shipment. Thus, you usually have to train coyotes/pikes and ship the maces, and it's fine. I'd really like these 3 to be removed.

– Puma Spearman "Siege Trooper" tag removed

This one would make sense. Maybe lower the siege attack to compensate.
The Coyote Runner is not very slow. It's 6.25; almost as fast as most cavalry, and faster than both the Brahmin Monk, and the Eagle Runner Knight (a psuedo light-cavalry unit, mind you). Even with +4% speed, Coyote Combat gives the unit 6.5 speed (same as the Cuirassier, Iron Flail, Lancer and Meteor Hammer, among others). I'm more than happy with the extent to which I've explained the reasoning for the change, in other posts, ITT. Please see those, too.

It's most likely not by design, but by balance. Still, if it is by design, it's bad design; shipping and training different unit types should both be viable; forcing players to train one unit and ship the other is limiting and not fine. It makes for one-dimensional play without variety. Leaving the Macehualtin shipments and simply buffing 5 Coyote Runners is an option, but would likely be overpowered. Consider presenting an argument as to why the changes are bad, if you want them to be undone. Dislike is not a logical argument.

I'd rather not standardize the Puma Spearman.

You're not meant to have 4 viable unit shipments in colonial. Buffing the coyote shipment is just like buffing 5 uhlans to 6 uhlans because it's a bad shipment, it doesn't make sense. You have good military shipments and bad military shipments, that's how it works. It doesn't make for one dimensional play without variety at all lol.

"Consider presenting an argument as to why the changes are bad"
You're being very stubborn honestly. I've already said it multiple times, we don't need to to present arguments as to why a change is bad. You're the one who has to present good arguments as to why a change is good.
You're simply standardizing the colonial shipments, it's not a balance issue but it makes the game worse and it definitely doesn't create variety.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

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zoom wrote:
Cometk wrote:5 coyotes was viable, and still included in almost every aztec deck. 5 coyo would still be viable to send on ep7 especially considering the general attack buff to coyotes
The point is that it isn't viable as an option to the other unit shipments. It's sometimes viable after they have all been sent. It should be similarly viable to the other unit shipments, which should be balanced accordingly. I'm yet to see a single argument against this – let alone a convincing one, so step up your game.
somewhat of an aside... but in line with the philosophy of this change, are their plans to buff germany’s Colonial 5 uhlan shipment?

edit: seems rouga beat me to the fruit punch
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by zoom »

Hazza54321 wrote:Alright. Continue buffing useless crap and implementing terrible changes that dont fit the game at all. Remove me from these useless discussions as you never listen to anyone and im clearly just wasting time.
I haven't implemented anything beyond the first iteration of a beta. It's funny you think I never listen to anyone, when not a single update to the beta has been released, yet, and all of your posts amount to "this is bad". I must be missing the intelligent arguments you have been presenting!

If only you were interested in being constructive, your removal were a pity. Instead, it's a pity you seem so insistent on an unreasonable attitude. At any point, if you change your mind, and wish to contribute anything meaningful, you're welcome to.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by zoom »

Cometk wrote:
zoom wrote:
Cometk wrote:5 coyotes was viable, and still included in almost every aztec deck. 5 coyo would still be viable to send on ep7 especially considering the general attack buff to coyotes
The point is that it isn't viable as an option to the other unit shipments. It's sometimes viable after they have all been sent. It should be similarly viable to the other unit shipments, which should be balanced accordingly. I'm yet to see a single argument against this – let alone a convincing one, so step up your game.
somewhat of an aside... but in line with the philosophy of this change, are their plans to buff germany’s Colonial 5 uhlan shipment?

edit: seems rouga beat me to the fruit punch
Absolutely – if it can be done without it becoming overpowered. I am confident this is the case for Aztecs, unlike for Germans. It is also less risky. As well, 5 Uhlans is more viable, compared to 8 Crossbowmen and 3 Doppelsoldners, than 5 Coyote Runners is, compared to the Macehualtin shipments, and 6 Puma Spearmen.

Other than that, it's a matter of priorities, like this entire beta.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I think Hazza has a point, you might listen to people but we really feel like you ignore us.
You take a lot of time to answer (can't blame you for that though), and you ask us to prove why a change is bad while you should be the one trying to prove why it is good. You don't really change your opinion about your changes even when most people are against it.

Furthermore, I'm not a big fan of your patch process. You implemented 50 changes without asking anyone and now we have to spend a lot of time trying to argue against 25 changes. It's very time consuming for us and I guess that's why Hazza and Somppu think that this is a waste of time.

You also have a weird EP philosophy which is probably not shared by the community. I'm quite sure that the community doesn't want the chinese changes, and so far everybody is against buffing 5 coyotes to 6 coyotes, it's just standardizing. Still, you're being quite stubborn and you don't want to revert it.
Finally, I'm disappointed to see that you don't want to implement fixed crates when 60% of the community supports it, while you're defending extremely unpopular changes.

With GS the EP wasn't a dictatorship at all and often it felt like he would consider the top players' and the community's opinion before his.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:
zoom wrote:Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Aztecs, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– War Chief cover mode added [revert]
– Puma Spearman hand attack light infantry multiplier increased from 3 to 3.5 I only agree with this if that's the multiplier for euro pikes. Otherwise it makes no sense. Puma already destroy coyotemen
– Coyote Runner hand attack increased from 18 to 20 among all things to buff attack makes the least sense. Unit is already damage focused (like ulhans). Many units won't actually attack due to pathing,making the buff not so great. Attack dance stacks on this buff likely causing balance problems.
– "5 Coyote Runners" shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners buffing the unit and also buffing the shipment is something to be careful with.
– "Coyote Combat" shipment decreased from +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +10% Coyote Runner speed to +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +4% Coyote Runner speed Idk about this. It can makes sense but sounds like a random change.
– "10 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to 9 Macehualtins ok
– "9 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to INFINITE 8 Macehualtins fancy infinite stuff of course. Just make it 8 maces?
– Arrow Knight population cost reduced from 2 to 1 ok, please also increase unit speed to 4.
– Eagle Runner Knight speed increased from 6 to 6.5; ranged resistance decreased from 30% to 20% ok, unit had to be reworked somehow. Might consider changing the special multiplier skirms get against the ERK tho.
– Jaguar Prowl Knight hand attack increased from 18 to 20; hitpoints increased from 230 to 240 I can straight up tell you this buff is excessive, but let's see how this goes.

The following changes are currently being considered:

– "Heal Dance" no longer affects the War Chief while incapacitated questionable, but ok I understand the reason.
– Puma Spearman "Siege Trooper" tag removed this is such a blunder tho. Pumas deserve that tag as they're completely intended to be the "petard type" unit for Aztecs. Can't remove the tag without nerfing their siege a bit
– Skull Knight hitpoints increased from 300 to 340 This is random. On what is this based? The unit is not underwhelming in HP or attack. If anything just standardize its speed to 4.5 like dopps, samurai, etc.
– "Temple of Centeotl Support" shipment increased from +25% Macehualtin hitpoints to +25% hitpoints and +0.25 “Heavy Infantry” and “Light Cavalry” multipliers for Macehualtins maces already destroy HI, like literally destroy. They also do fine vs goon type units when in range The problem in fact is just the range. So if you really want to make this card and the unit itself a bit better then just add +2 range or something to the card while also nerfing it somehow to compensate (e.g. less units delivered or less HP granted).
– "Temple of Xipe Totec Support" shipment increased from +20% Coyote Runner hand attack to +20% hand attack and +0.1 ranged resistance for Coyote Runners Again, can't just buff the card without compensation. The card is already good at the moment. Also after buffing base damage you clearly want to have a different bonus on this card, ideally HP buff. 10% HP and +0.1rr makes more sense.

Overall I'm just going to tell you that simply buffing Aztecs units will result in a complete balance disaster as all units are already quite good. The aim should be a rework of the units, making them more playable and not a simple net buff. 0.2rr coyotemen will be a pain in the ass to counter in age3 and later.
It is the Pikeman multiplier. Regardless, the relevant part is that it's a problem.

I agree that there is a slight risk in buffing both 5 Coyote Runners, and the unit itself, but the former is a relatively bad shipment, and the latter is a small buff. One option is to nerf the Macehualtin shipments, without buffing the Coyote one; that would help achieving the result, too. It would be a nerf, though, unless you also removed Puma Spearman siege trooper tag.

I see no reason to buff Arrow Knight speed, too. It seems fine at 3.75 already, without a limber mode.

I see no reason to compensate for a moderate ERK nerf, with the unit being so strong.

I see no reason that the Jaguar Prowl Knight would go from failing to counter both cavalry and heavy infantry, to overpowered, with a 1/9 attack and 1/23 hitpoints buff.

I agree that removing the siege trooper tag from the Puma Spearman is potentially problematic.

The Skull Knight is a relatively terrible unique unit, in every other sense than that it's auto-improving. I'd rather not standardize it, on top of which a speed buff would be more significant.

Macehualtin temple shipment range is an option. I like both alternatives. I see no reason to change the Coyote Runner temple shipment, though. In general, I think you exaggerate things.

Other than that, I haven't anything to add to what I've already said, ITT. Slightly buffing the civilization seems desirable, given the general consensus.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by zoom »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:- "5 Coyote Runners" shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners
- "10 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to 9 Macehualtins
- "9 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to INFINITE 8 Macehualtins

So, can we revert these 3?
If I see a convincing argument against them, or they prove especially unpopular – absolutely!
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

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[Armag] diarouga wrote:Furthermore, I'm not a big fan of your patch process. You implemented 50 changes without asking anyone . . .

objectively untrue
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

zoom wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:- "5 Coyote Runners" shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners
- "10 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to 9 Macehualtins
- "9 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to INFINITE 8 Macehualtins

So, can we revert these 3?
If I see a convincing argument against them, or they prove especially unpopular – absolutely!

The argument is that you're standardizing the civ with this change. We don't want all the shipments to be the same.

I guess the only reason to see if they're unpopular is to poll it.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cometk wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Furthermore, I'm not a big fan of your patch process. You implemented 50 changes without asking anyone . . .

objectively untrue

I made an EP7 suggestion thread like 1 month ago, and many people agreed with some changes. Still, none of these changes were implemented and all the EP7 beta changes were thought by Zoi.
Objectively, Zoi is the one who made all the changes.

I think this should really be discussed, the job of the EP leader is to listen to the community and to the top players, not to make 50 changes on his own and see how it goes.
The EP leader should be a representative, not a king who listens to his menials from time to time.
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by Cometk »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Cometk wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Furthermore, I'm not a big fan of your patch process. You implemented 50 changes without asking anyone . . .

objectively untrue

I made an EP7 suggestion thread like 1 month ago, and many people agreed with some changes. Still, none of these changes were implemented and all the EP7 beta changes were thought by Zoi.
Objectively, Zoi is the one who made all the changes.

I think this should really be discussed, the job of the EP leader is to listen to the community and to the top players, not to make 50 changes on his own and see how it goes.
The EP leader should be a representative, not a king who listens to his menials from time to time.

the first statement of yours that i quoted is still objectively untrue. as to why you weren't included in the pre-beta process, consider that prior misgivings, understandably so. if you'd like to discuss further on that point let's take it to pm's. i am happy to say though that the discussion so far has been tempered and i find your contribution to these forums generally helpful!
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Re: Beta Aztecs Discussion

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:
zoom wrote:Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Aztecs, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– War Chief cover mode added [revert]
– Puma Spearman hand attack light infantry multiplier increased from 3 to 3.5 I only agree with this if that's the multiplier for euro pikes. Otherwise it makes no sense. Puma already destroy coyotemen
– Coyote Runner hand attack increased from 18 to 20 among all things to buff attack makes the least sense. Unit is already damage focused (like ulhans). Many units won't actually attack due to pathing,making the buff not so great. Attack dance stacks on this buff likely causing balance problems.
– "5 Coyote Runners" shipment increased to 6 Coyote Runners buffing the unit and also buffing the shipment is something to be careful with.
– "Coyote Combat" shipment decreased from +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +10% Coyote Runner speed to +20% Coyote Runner hitpoints and +4% Coyote Runner speed Idk about this. It can makes sense but sounds like a random change.
– "10 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to 9 Macehualtins ok
– "9 Macehualtins" shipment decreased to INFINITE 8 Macehualtins fancy infinite stuff of course. Just make it 8 maces?
– Arrow Knight population cost reduced from 2 to 1 ok, please also increase unit speed to 4.
– Eagle Runner Knight speed increased from 6 to 6.5; ranged resistance decreased from 30% to 20% ok, unit had to be reworked somehow. Might consider changing the special multiplier skirms get against the ERK tho.
– Jaguar Prowl Knight hand attack increased from 18 to 20; hitpoints increased from 230 to 240 I can straight up tell you this buff is excessive, but let's see how this goes.

The following changes are currently being considered:

– "Heal Dance" no longer affects the War Chief while incapacitated questionable, but ok I understand the reason.
– Puma Spearman "Siege Trooper" tag removed this is such a blunder tho. Pumas deserve that tag as they're completely intended to be the "petard type" unit for Aztecs. Can't remove the tag without nerfing their siege a bit
– Skull Knight hitpoints increased from 300 to 340 This is random. On what is this based? The unit is not underwhelming in HP or attack. If anything just standardize its speed to 4.5 like dopps, samurai, etc.
– "Temple of Centeotl Support" shipment increased from +25% Macehualtin hitpoints to +25% hitpoints and +0.25 “Heavy Infantry” and “Light Cavalry” multipliers for Macehualtins maces already destroy HI, like literally destroy. They also do fine vs goon type units when in range The problem in fact is just the range. So if you really want to make this card and the unit itself a bit better then just add +2 range or something to the card while also nerfing it somehow to compensate (e.g. less units delivered or less HP granted).
– "Temple of Xipe Totec Support" shipment increased from +20% Coyote Runner hand attack to +20% hand attack and +0.1 ranged resistance for Coyote Runners Again, can't just buff the card without compensation. The card is already good at the moment. Also after buffing base damage you clearly want to have a different bonus on this card, ideally HP buff. 10% HP and +0.1rr makes more sense.

Overall I'm just going to tell you that simply buffing Aztecs units will result in a complete balance disaster as all units are already quite good. The aim should be a rework of the units, making them more playable and not a simple net buff. 0.2rr coyotemen will be a pain in the ass to counter in age3 and later.
It is the Pikeman multiplier. Regardless, the relevant part is that it's a problem.

I agree that there is a slight risk in buffing both 5 Coyote Runners, and the unit itself, but the former is a relatively bad shipment, and the latter is a small buff. One option is to nerf the Macehualtin shipments, without buffing the Coyote one; that would help achieving the result, too. It would be a nerf, though, unless you also removed Puma Spearman siege trooper tag.

I see no reason to buff Arrow Knight speed, too. It seems fine at 3.75 already, without a limber mode.

I see no reason to compensate for a moderate ERK nerf, with the unit being so strong.

I see no reason that the Jaguar Prowl Knight would go from failing to counter both cavalry and heavy infantry, to overpowered, with a 1/9 attack and 1/23 hitpoints buff.

I agree that removing the siege trooper tag from the Puma Spearman is potentially problematic.

The Skull Knight is a relatively terrible unique unit, in every other sense than that it's auto-improving. I'd rather not standardize it, on top of which a speed buff would be more significant.

Macehualtin temple shipment range is an option. I like both alternatives. I see no reason to change the Coyote Runner temple shipment, though. In general, I think you exaggerate things.

Other than that, I haven't anything to add to what I've already said, ITT. Slightly buffing the civilization seems desirable, given the general consensus.

Puma failing to counter coyotemen has never been a problem.

2 attack is not even a small buff, objectively.

The reason to buff the arrow knight speed is because it's not viable with such low speed with the rest of the Aztec army having, at worst, 4.5 speed. Euro artillery has 4 speed. No limber mode is the advantage of being an infantry unit (which still has a long setup animation anyway). There are also drawbacks for being an infantry unit.

The reason to compensate for ERK nerf is that RI units already have a specific multiplier ERK which accounts the fact that the unit is so strong. In fact the unit is "so strong" mostly for it's dps and not his supposed immunity to other units (in fact ERK tend to take damage from basically everything).

JPK does fine at what is supposed to do. Again, I hate to repeat myself, but you have no clue with such statements.

Skull knight is a rather great unique unit in every other sense but speed. High HP, high attakc, area damage.
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