Beta British Discussion

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

zoom wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:I think a revert of the manor nerf should be considered.
Having seen your arguments, I'm convinced that keeping it is worthwhile, being both good for balance, and removing a decimal cost. Still, if I see a convincing argument, or the change proves particularly unpopular, I might reconsider.
Interesting that you've seen my arguments because I haven't. Or maybe I just have a shitty memory. I think my only argument is that it's a shit change. Not that I can think of a better one, rather I'm kind of hoping that Brit didn't even really need to be nerfed in the first place.

Fixed crates would fix this issue, as well, because then we can actually tweak their crate start. But alas.

Actually come to think of it, what about reverting the manor nerf and replacing one of their wood crates with a coin crate?
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

what would be the point of that... replacing one wood crate with coin would mean they can potentially start with just 100w and will have to chop the extra 35?
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

Yeah which would make it harder to age early, which Brit tends to do on a food or wood start.
I guess it might be a bit too much though. It would also disable the TP start.
Maybe replace with a food crate instead.

Actually I don't like it anymore. Guess I'm just desperate to find something that doesn't directly nerf the civ bonus, which is the type of change that appears in my nightmares.

Fixed crates pls
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:lbow should be tweaked as follow:
- -1 base damage, x1.5 vs HI
- yeomen gives +2 range and +10% hitpoints. Alternatively +2 range and +0.5 vs HI.
- guard and imperial ups by default.
I'd rather not standardize the Longbowman (or Yeomen), unless it cannot otherwise be balanced.

Ok then keep a unit that: don't counter HI, counter everything else.
And because of that you always have to be careful with every other Brits change, since as good as they are they will always have this permanent loophole in their army.
Just don't mess with the manor change, it did good.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Goodspeed wrote:
zoom wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:I think a revert of the manor nerf should be considered.
Having seen your arguments, I'm convinced that keeping it is worthwhile, being both good for balance, and removing a decimal cost. Still, if I see a convincing argument, or the change proves particularly unpopular, I might reconsider.
Interesting that you've seen my arguments because I haven't. Or maybe I just have a shitty memory. I think my only argument is that it's a shit change. Not that I can think of a better one, rather I'm kind of hoping that Brit didn't even really need to be nerfed in the first place.

Fixed crates would fix this issue, as well, because then we can actually tweak their crate start. But alas.

Actually come to think of it, what about reverting the manor nerf and replacing one of their wood crates with a coin crate?

Replace it with a food crate if you want, coin crate is just shit.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

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Goodspeed wrote:Yeah which would make it harder to age early, which Brit tends to do on a food or wood start.
I guess it might be a bit too much though. It would also disable the TP start.
Maybe replace with a food crate instead.

Actually I don't like it anymore. Guess I'm just desperate to find something that doesn't directly nerf the civ bonus, which is the type of change that appears in my nightmares.

Fixed crates pls


Well, i don't see why balancing civ bonuses is problematic. RE has done so as well,for example having balanced spains civ bonus, and i'm sure if i'd go through patch notes, there'd be more examples. Iro travois restriction comes to mind. Its not like the bonus is removed.

I mean, maybe theres another way, but id much rather nerf manir cost a little than doing other weird stuff. Fixed crates is ok, but i mean brits would still be strong on 200w 300f starts. That said, i dont know if nerfing manors is strictly necessary.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

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umeu wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Yeah which would make it harder to age early, which Brit tends to do on a food or wood start.
I guess it might be a bit too much though. It would also disable the TP start.
Maybe replace with a food crate instead.

Actually I don't like it anymore. Guess I'm just desperate to find something that doesn't directly nerf the civ bonus, which is the type of change that appears in my nightmares.

Fixed crates pls
Well, i don't see why balancing civ bonuses is problematic.
It tends to make builds/play styles unique to the civ less viable, as was the case here. I agree with balancing a civ bonus if it's the only way to balance a civ (or all the alternatives are even worse) and that's why we went for this. But I will never stop looking for alternatives, or excuses to suggest reverting it.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by sebnan12 »

i always thought that brits are very well balanced. imo they shud remain as they are. i would love to see how they do with the quartermaster just to see if it would turn out to be broken or not.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

sebnan12 wrote:i always thought that brits are very well balanced. imo they shud remain as they are. i would love to see how they do with the quartermaster just to see if it would turn out to be broken or not.

They would be super broken. You could go VC and get 5v from the aging crates lol.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by sebnan12 »

and if it was like a 200 or 300 wood? @Diarouga
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

sebnan12 wrote:and if it was like a 200 or 300 wood? @Diarouga

I'd take 500f over 200w anyday. I guess 300w vs 500f would be close when going for a VC boom.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by sebnan12 »

i mean 300 wood instead of the cows or soemthing could actually help being less predictable and makes it easier to start cav i would imagine.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Hum, 500f>300w for cav start.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

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Goodspeed wrote:
umeu wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Yeah which would make it harder to age early, which Brit tends to do on a food or wood start.
I guess it might be a bit too much though. It would also disable the TP start.
Maybe replace with a food crate instead.

Actually I don't like it anymore. Guess I'm just desperate to find something that doesn't directly nerf the civ bonus, which is the type of change that appears in my nightmares.

Fixed crates pls
Well, i don't see why balancing civ bonuses is problematic.
It tends to make builds/play styles unique to the civ less viable, as was the case here. I agree with balancing a civ bonus if it's the only way to balance a civ (or all the alternatives are even worse) and that's why we went for this. But I will never stop looking for alternatives, or excuses to suggest reverting it.


Its not the case though? Brits still spam manors, and they still go vc. And its still strong vs other civs, and also still the best option brits has.

I mean, RE has just somewhat arbitrarily fixed the number for manors on 135.something which was probably not the first number they came up with. Why is that number so sacred that it cant be changed... and that youd rather make 10 other changes to achieve a balance that can be achieved with 1.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

umeu wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
Show hidden quotes
It tends to make builds/play styles unique to the civ less viable, as was the case here. I agree with balancing a civ bonus if it's the only way to balance a civ (or all the alternatives are even worse) and that's why we went for this. But I will never stop looking for alternatives, or excuses to suggest reverting it.
Its not the case though? Brits still spam manors, and they still go vc. And its still strong vs other civs, and also still the best option brits has.
Is it? I rarely see Brits go VC and/or manor boom (by which I mean boom to /150+ pop in early colonial) in streamed matches. Anyway I didn't say unviable, just less viable. Maybe not by much, but any amount is unwanted imo.

I mean, RE has just somewhat arbitrarily fixed the number for manors on 135, something which was probably not the first number they came up with. Why is that number so sacred that it cant be changed... and that youd rather make 10 other changes to achieve a balance that can be achieved with 1.
RE changed manor cost? I could've sworn it has been 135 from when I first started playing. Yeah, 135 is probably not the first number, seems likely that was either 100 or 150. Whoever was responsible for the decision at the time surely had their reasons of eventually settling on 135, like we had our reasons for increasing it. It's obviously not sacred to me since the change was made on my watch (something you seem to be forgetting?) but that doesn't stop me from continuing the search for alternatives or suggesting, at the earliest opportunity, to at least consider reverting it like in this case when other civs are getting buffs, Brit doesn't seem all that strong and the change may not have been needed in the first place.

I suppose the main reason I'm so opposed to changes like this is the precedent it sets. Nerfing a civ bonus is the easiest way to balance a civ, and it's a reflex that should be resisted.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

If anything VC is slightly more viable now. It's worth 2 wood more per manor. Let's face it, for a full VC boom you're paying only like 60w more than on RE, it's not what I'd call a huge difference.
Manor boom without VC isn't really a thing in most mus because it's just slow. If you want units early on, you can't chop for 150+ pop of full cost manors. And if you don't need units, pretty sure VC is simply superior, even if you have to skip the discovery 3v.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by zoom »

Goodspeed wrote:
zoom wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:I think a revert of the manor nerf should be considered.
Having seen your arguments, I'm convinced that keeping it is worthwhile, being both good for balance, and removing a decimal cost. Still, if I see a convincing argument, or the change proves particularly unpopular, I might reconsider.
Interesting that you've seen my arguments because I haven't. Or maybe I just have a shitty memory. I think my only argument is that it's a shit change. Not that I can think of a better one, rather I'm kind of hoping that Brit didn't even really need to be nerfed in the first place.

Fixed crates would fix this issue, as well, because then we can actually tweak their crate start. But alas.

Actually come to think of it, what about reverting the manor nerf and replacing one of their wood crates with a coin crate?
IIRC, your only argument is that it's standardization, which is technically correct, but practically irrelevant.

I wish I could call "it's shit" a shit argument, but it doesn't even qualify as one. It's subjective opinion, unsupported by logical reasoning – the kind for which you were criticizing Hazza, earlier. Lt's just call it "shit" then. You're definitely failing to convince.

That seems like a big nerf, considering your only reason for the shit non-argument to revert the Manor cost increase, is not to nerf the civilization.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by zoom »

Goodspeed wrote:Yeah which would make it harder to age early, which Brit tends to do on a food or wood start.
I guess it might be a bit too much though. It would also disable the TP start.
Maybe replace with a food crate instead.

Actually I don't like it anymore. Guess I'm just desperate to find something that doesn't directly nerf the civ bonus, which is the type of change that appears in my nightmares.

Fixed crates pls
Unlike an Uhlan nerf (for which the argument actually is practically relevant), for instance.

I don't think your arbitrary obsession with technicalities is healthy or reasonable. It's important to be flexible and use judgement, instead of absolute principle.

Fixed crates would be great, indeed!

Ideally, in the future, you'd revert the Manor nerf and adjust VC to solve the decimal cost issue.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:
zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:lbow should be tweaked as follow:
- -1 base damage, x1.5 vs HI
- yeomen gives +2 range and +10% hitpoints. Alternatively +2 range and +0.5 vs HI.
- guard and imperial ups by default.
I'd rather not standardize the Longbowman (or Yeomen), unless it cannot otherwise be balanced.

Ok then keep a unit that: don't counter HI, counter everything else.
And because of that you always have to be careful with every other Brits change, since as good as they are they will always have this permanent loophole in their army.
Just don't mess with the manor change, it did good.
Yeomen Longbowmen counter heavy infantry. You also have the best Musketeers in the game, if it isn't enough. Like I said, I don't think standardizing the unit is a good idea, unless absolutely necessary for balance. I'd rather buff Yeomen than make the Longbowman less unique.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by zoom »

Goodspeed wrote:
umeu wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Yeah which would make it harder to age early, which Brit tends to do on a food or wood start.
I guess it might be a bit too much though. It would also disable the TP start.
Maybe replace with a food crate instead.

Actually I don't like it anymore. Guess I'm just desperate to find something that doesn't directly nerf the civ bonus, which is the type of change that appears in my nightmares.

Fixed crates pls
Well, i don't see why balancing civ bonuses is problematic.
It tends to make builds/play styles unique to the civ less viable, as was the case here. I agree with balancing a civ bonus if it's the only way to balance a civ (or all the alternatives are even worse) and that's why we went for this. But I will never stop looking for alternatives, or excuses to suggest reverting it.
The 5w cost increase has not at all significantly made the building less viable. That's still silly.

Look for alternatives to the Uhlan nerf, then, because that's actually significant.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by edeholland »

zoom wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Yeah which would make it harder to age early, which Brit tends to do on a food or wood start.
I guess it might be a bit too much though. It would also disable the TP start.
Maybe replace with a food crate instead.

Actually I don't like it anymore. Guess I'm just desperate to find something that doesn't directly nerf the civ bonus, which is the type of change that appears in my nightmares.

Fixed crates pls
I don't think your obsession with arbitrary technicalities is healthy or reasonable. It's important to be flexible and use judgement, instead of absolute principle.
I think that attitude made for some great patches. It was also necessary to prevent the mistakes that were made in the Fanpatch.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Ok then keep a unit that: don't counter HI, counter everything else.
And because of that you always have to be careful with every other Brits change, since as good as they are they will always have this permanent loophole in their army.
Just don't mess with the manor change, it did good.
Yeomen Longbowmen counter heavy infantry. You also have the best Musketeers in the game, if it isn't enough. Like I said, I don't think standardizing the unit is a good idea, unless absolutely necessary for balance. I'd rather buff Yeomen than make the Longbowman less unique.

You can actually go 100% sepoy as India against brit because brit has no way to counter sepoys, so no yeomen lb don't counter HI.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

zoom wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Yeah which would make it harder to age early, which Brit tends to do on a food or wood start.
I guess it might be a bit too much though. It would also disable the TP start.
Maybe replace with a food crate instead.

Actually I don't like it anymore. Guess I'm just desperate to find something that doesn't directly nerf the civ bonus, which is the type of change that appears in my nightmares.

Fixed crates pls
I don't think your arbitrary obsession with technicalities is healthy or reasonable. It's important to be flexible and use judgement, instead of absolute principle.
Have you also forgotten that the manor change was made on my watch? It's not an obsession, it's a (strong) preference to balance without directly nerfing civ bonuses. One I hope you share.
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by Cometk »

i don't think such a slight nerf to british manors is any dissuasion to the civilization's current builds. the builds remain the exact same, just (very, very slightly) less powerful

i mean, coureur des bois were nerfed, and those have to be france's civ bonus, right? i mean what else is there? does anyone take issue with the idea of coureur des bois costing more food as a balance change, besides it being unnecessary for balance at this point in EP development?
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Re: Beta British Discussion

Post by Cometk »

manors costing 5w more is a general applied nerf to the civ that doesn't restrict build diversity. taking away a wood crate from brits (as was one of your suggestions, maybe not one you stand with/care for anymore, but simply for instance) would mar the civilization and be extremely restricting to the civ's potential build orders

i find the british manor nerf to be one of the most elegant nerfs in the patch, but that's just personally speaking. it feels good
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