Beta Chinese Discussion

[[Armag] diarouga]

Can we try to be a little more mature and constructive about it guys?
Another way of expressing your opinion is by stating you strongly disagree, and why. The why is important.

I think we've explained several times why we like fixed crates and want it implemented in the next patch. Here, the patch is going for the opposite and removes fixed crates instead. It will most likely create balance issues on top of that.

[Goodspeed]

Rather the patch is fixing a balance issue in China's crate start, which is that they are currently much worse on a wood+food start than they are on a coin start (for their opponent). That difference is hard to overstate.
I am for fixed crates but understand the decision against it. I made the same decision not too long ago. Considering fixed crates is off the table for now, the decision to finally do something about China's crate start makes sense.

Let me ask you this: Would you consider it an issue if, instead of every civ getting the same random crates, the crates are randomized per civ? For example you could have Germans start with 100w+100f and French start with 100c, if French gets unlucky.

The problem is in the difference in strength of the civs purely based on a dice roll. I gave the example of China because it illustrates it perfectly. You say China is always "down" one crate, but that's not true. Ignoring the detail that actually they would be down an extra (food) crate in 2/5 cases, you can just as easily argue they are always up a crate. The problem isn't in whether they are up or down a crate, the problem is the difference.

It's especially apparent when you consider a game between Germans and China. If Germans get a wood start, they get an early TP. If they get a coin start, they're unhappy. China gets the same crates either way. This severely impacts the result of the game. It can be argued that it is actually the difference between Germans winning the match up and losing it, and it's purely based on chance. That is poor game design.

Getting a wood start on a TP map is similar to almost +1 vill for most civs. And it's (relatively) okay if both civs get it, but because we have a civ like China with their static crates, we have this problem. That is why you either give every civ fixed crates, or none of them.

And stopping to think about that extra food crate for a sec: The difference between only a coin start and a wood+food start is 152 villager seconds. Even without the potential TP start, that's like having +1 vill for most of discovery age.

viewtopic.php?f=210&t=9090

Frankly, I think China's crate start issue is one of the biggest things currently lowering AoE3's skill cap (because it introduces a good bit of randomness). It's a good thing not every game has China in it.

[Garja]

Yes it is.
The extra random crate is the same for every civ so, except for Dutch, it either helps or not all the civs. But China has his own crates (and it's an extra wood crate) so it's either even of unfair for all other civs.

[n0el]

based on my initial test games on the beta, China needs more changes. They are by far the best civ when they get 300w 300f (idleless 15v up with a TP if you get a couple decent treasures) and they are complete shit on a 100f + coin start (you basically can't play age 2 and you FF without a TP and missing a vil/house). The easy thing is to revert the crate changes, which makes complete sense, since they are unpopular. The alternative is really messy, and doesn't really address the starting delta unless you make major changes.

[[Armag] diarouga]

based on my initial test games on the beta, China needs more changes. They are by far the best civ when they get 300w 300f (idleless 15v up with a TP if you get a couple decent treasures) and they are complete shit on a 100f + coin start (you basically can't play age 2 and you FF without a TP and missing a vil/house). The easy thing is to revert the crate changes, which makes complete sense, since they are unpopular. The alternative is really messy, and doesn't really address the starting delta unless you make major changes.

That was to be expected.
The solution is obviously fixed crates for all civs, not random crates for China lol.