Beta Dutch Discussion

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New Zealand zoom
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Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by zoom »

Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Dutch, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

:flowers:

The following changes are currently being considered:

– Envoy cost changed from 50f to 50c; train points decreased from 30 to 15
– “Tulip Speculation” shipment increased from +15% to +20% Bank coin trickle
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Canada Mitoe
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by Mitoe »

– Envoy cost changed from 50f to 50c; train points decreased from 30 to 15

Envoys are fine as-is IMO.


I've probably said this anytime there's a discussion about Dutch, but I really think that we should revert the build limit back to 4 and decrease the cost of banks to 350f 300w. This would give Dutch a lot more options and negate the crazy snowballing potential that they've had on the current and previous patches. If you're concerned about their economy/build order being too simple then make the upgrades more appealing.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Honestly, 350f/300w banks with a 4 bank limit is a buff. We tried that in a previous patch, and Dutch was just too strong. You could get 4 banks and a TP in no time, that was ridiculous.

In 1v1, Dutch is in a good spot right now. I wouldn't change the civ. Not sure about the envoy cost yea xD.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by lordraphael »

could have a middle route. 4 banks but increase bank gather rate slightly. cost remains.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by Cometk »

i wouldn't mind envoy train time being reduced from 30s to 15s as an overall viabilility change, but wouldn't change the food cost to coin. that seems more like a nerf. alternatively, if it were possible to have envoys queued seperately from villagers, as in you could train both of them at the same time, that is a change that intrigues me. perhaps that's too strong, though
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

lordraphael wrote:could have a middle route. 4 banks but increase bank gather rate slightly. cost remains.

What's wrong with current Dutch?
I think that this would be a buff as well. You usually can't get away with 5 banks in 1v1.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by deleted_user »

This civ is fine, better to not touch it at all imo
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by Garja »

You don't want more income with banks, I think we can all agree that when Dutch eco is set up it is already great (spamming from 4 buildings is glorious).
So I agree with Mitoe, revert it to 4 banks, it made more sense, and if anything making them cheaper so that Dutch can deal a bit better vs aggro civs such as Russia. The idea is to make Dutch an actually playable unit in colonial.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

I think dutch is fine currently.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:You usually can't get away with 5 banks in 1v1.

In some match ups you do, or at least you can drop it with 1000w quite often.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by Mitoe »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Honestly, 350f/300w banks with a 4 bank limit is a buff. We tried that in a previous patch, and Dutch was just too strong. You could get 4 banks and a TP in no time, that was ridiculous.

In 1v1, Dutch is in a good spot right now. I wouldn't change the civ. Not sure about the envoy cost yea xD.

They had a build limit of 5 with that cheaper cost, that's why they were too good. TP isn't even good with Dutch most of the time; why would you do that when you could bank?
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

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Post by WickedCossack »

Mitoe wrote:
– Envoy cost changed from 50f to 50c; train points decreased from 30 to 15

Envoys are fine as-is IMO.


I've probably said this anytime there's a discussion about Dutch, but I really think that we should revert the build limit back to 4 and decrease the cost of banks to 350f 300w. This would give Dutch a lot more options and negate the crazy snowballing potential that they've had on the current and previous patches. If you're concerned about their economy/build order being too simple then make the upgrades more appealing.


I think it would decrease the options no? With the cheaper banks you will max out on them quite often and then you're just left spamming units.

At least with more expensive banks the choice to choose between 3/4/5 banks is more important and see with what eco you can get away with.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by Mitoe »

I was thinking that in age 2 you'd be able to adapt much more easily to what your opponent does (easier to contest TPs, drop military buildings, mix pikes, etc.), so in that sense it does increase options. If you want more economic options a good start would be to make the church card no longer nerf your army speed.


In my opinion the whole argument around Dutch needing to decide how many banks to build isn't really valid. Dutch just boom to 5 banks instead of 4, there's not a lot of decision making to be done about how many they boom to. This is because these buildings a lot less limited than manors or shrines: they do not deplete natural resources, like villagers from manors, and they do not rely on natural resources to generate resources like shrines do with hunts. The reason you don't full boom with Brit is because oversaturating your natural resources at home is actually counter-productive after a point, and with Japan you either run out of shrines or have to place them in very exposed locations.

Dutch, unlike Japan and Brit, full boom and have a very strong mid game economy, and then their economy starts to fall off later in the game because they only have a 50 villager limit and can't afford to include all of their eco cards in their deck. This is what makes Dutch unique: they full boom and then make the most of that economic advantage to generate other advantages before they start to fall off. If you were to graph their power scaling compared to British and Japan, Brit/Japan would be a steadily climbing incline from the start of their boom until the very end of the game, whereas Dutch is like stairs, and each stair is a pretty significant jump from the previous one, and jumps up a lot for each bank you construct: once you max out though you have nowhere to go, you plateau for the rest of the game, and you either win off of that or lose. Plus, to compensate for the weaker economy lategame you have significantly more military population than other civs anyway, which can often win key fights.

I do think that they should have more economic options so that they can deal with different situations adequately, but I don't think that the 5/6 bank limit has really served this intended purpose.


Overall Dutch is in an ok spot in terms of balance, but in terms of design I think Dutch excels too much in specific situations where their eco snowballs a bit too hard when they do get to get away with 5 banks very early, whereas 4 banks would be fine, and yet can't deal with early aggression very easily at all regardless of how many banks they build.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

In my opinion the whole argument around Dutch needing to decide how many banks to build isn't really valid. Dutch just boom to 5 banks instead of 4, there's not a lot of decision making to be done about how many they boom to.
Is that true? It's hard to believe it's viable to boom to 5 in every game. If that's really the case, then the limit should either be increased further or build bounty should be reduced, and other nerfs/buffs should be added elsewhere to compensate.

I've been in this discussion so many times I don't really feel like getting into it in depth again, but in short, imo they need this bank limit change because otherwise they are not strategically interesting. There was no build variety, every game was the same. You boom to 4 and hope it's enough to compensate for your weaknesses. Dutch was often forced to be aggressive because they would get outscaled otherwise, which I didn't think fit the civ. Dutch had always been a defensive boom civ and the TP meta changed that. Other civs discovered the TP option, but Dutch lagged behind; they were still doing the build they were doing 10 years ago. For them to "get with the times" so to speak, they needed the option to play greedy. An option they always had, but no longer due to a shift in the meta.

If, currently, you boom to 5 every game then yeah the change didn't have its intended effect and something should be done about that. At the very least though, when to build the 5th bank is (hopefully) not a total no-brainer and Dutch isn't forced into mid-game aggression as much.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

This is just no true. Against agressive civs, you sometimes want to go for 3 bank timings. In some match-ups, you also can't afford the 5 bank ff and you have to 4 bank ff, and add the 5th bank with 1000w if you have time to send it.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by Garja »

Against aggressive civs you clearly don't boom to 5 but you mostly lose because you have hard time defending.
Vs non aggressive civs however you boom to 5 and you mostly win because you have too much income.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

5 banks dutch is insane tbh. You have more income than 3 atp spain 5v+4v with fish and cree boom behind it.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by Peachrocks »

umeu wrote:5 banks dutch is insane tbh. You have more income than 3 atp spain 5v+4v with fish and cree boom behind it.


To be fair 5 banks cost more up front then those things I think ;). Furthermore Spain as a civ by design isn't meant to compete economically whereas Dutch is. I wouldn't mind it if it could with it's shipments but I feel I'd be quite alone there :D.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Peachrocks wrote:
umeu wrote:5 banks dutch is insane tbh. You have more income than 3 atp spain 5v+4v with fish and cree boom behind it.


To be fair 5 banks cost more up front then those things I think ;). Furthermore Spain as a civ by design isn't meant to compete economically whereas Dutch is. I wouldn't mind it if it could with it's shipments but I feel I'd be quite alone there :D.


Does it? Its 2 shipments, 700w + 1bw. As well as age up poli 400w. For spain its atp, 5+4v schooner and 700w = 5 shipments.

4 banks built is 1400f 1400w = 2800 res for spain its 460 for tp + 500f for 5 cdb, 400w for 2 docks and 1300w for 26 boats. = 2660 res. Almost no difference in res
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by Peachrocks »

I'd ask you what the exact resource gain is for both because I'm kinda curious but that's really deviating. Also you don't need map control for banks, for water you need water control, for tps you need that control but maybe the numbers here are worth looking into since the entire argument is based on this. Also I doubt you'd send both schooners and ATP.

Having said that though, competing economically isn't really Spain's deal as I said but it could be useful as a general reference point.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by zoom »

Mitoe wrote:
– Envoy cost changed from 50f to 50c; train points decreased from 30 to 15

Envoys are fine as-is IMO.


I've probably said this anytime there's a discussion about Dutch, but I really think that we should revert the build limit back to 4 and decrease the cost of banks to 350f 300w. This would give Dutch a lot more options and negate the crazy snowballing potential that they've had on the current and previous patches. If you're concerned about their economy/build order being too simple then make the upgrades more appealing.
Agreed; it's a unique unit that's totally viable.

Until I see a convincing case against Goodspeed's argument on that issue, it simply is not happening. I believe it goes a little something like this:

If Dutch building 5 Banks is a problem, nerfing the Bank's strength makes more sense than nerfing its build limit. The build limit should never be equal to, or lower than, the minimum number of Banks you're always going to build. The option to boom harder should always be available, without always being optimal.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by zoom »

Cometk wrote:i wouldn't mind envoy train time being reduced from 30s to 15s as an overall viabilility change, but wouldn't change the food cost to coin. that seems more like a nerf. alternatively, if it were possible to have envoys queued seperately from villagers, as in you could train both of them at the same time, that is a change that intrigues me. perhaps that's too strong, though
Rapha did suggest that, and I think it's worth considering. I'm unsure if it's technically doable, though. Will ask.

The neat thing about having the unit cost coin, is that you could build it while under siege, which would make for an interesting mechanic and improve the unit's viability.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by Mitoe »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:This is just no true. Against agressive civs, you sometimes want to go for 3 bank timings. In some match-ups, you also can't afford the 5 bank ff and you have to 4 bank ff, and add the 5th bank with 1000w if you have time to send it.

Everyone who plays Dutch actively at a high level always goes for 5 banks in 9/10 situations, often without even making units and just making all 5 then sending CM. I’m pretty sure if you go back and watch any games that Dutch won in recent tournaments, it was always because they went 5 bank.

Anyway I’m not saying that they shouldn’t have more ways to boom, and it’s a bit annoying that I’ve had to say that every single time I’ve had this discussion. I just think that decision needs to be focused elsewhere, like into the bank-related cards rather than the bank build limit.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by Garja »

You don't want to reduce envoy train time to the point that making them in age1 becomes a real option.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Making them in age 1 won't ever be an option if you don't change the cost.
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Re: Beta Dutch Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Making them in age 1 won't ever be an option if it means you have to idle your tc, unless we make them extremely cheap, which is not desirable because then they'd be too strong later on.
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