Beta Germans Discussion

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Please discuss anything relating specifically to the Germans, in this thread. The following are the current changes to the civilization:

– “3 Settler Wagons” shipment decreased to 2 Settler Wagons and 1 Settler
– "Hire Hessian Jaegers" shipment decreased from 13 to 12 Jaegers
– Uhlan cost increased from 50f, 100c to 65f, 100c (bounties increased from 15 to 16); hitpoints increased from 180 to 190

The following changes are currently being considered:

– Settler Wagon ranged attack huntable multiplier increased from 3 to 5.75
– Doppelsoldner hitpoints decreased from 240 to 230 [revert]

[Mitoe]

– Settler Wagon ranged attack huntable multiplier increased from 3 to 5.75

Completely unnecessary, IMO. I would not consider this simply to keep the notes tidy.


Overall I'm meh on the changes. Might even be a buff.

[Goodspeed]

I would stick with the jaeger nerf. If that's not enough, I would not only nerf the shipment but the unit stats as well. I strongly dislike messing with the 3sw shipment.

[deleted_user]

To be fair, I am not really sure if we should consider Germany is "nerfed" let me explain why,

- having old stats of uhlans back basicly means you will have 2 more strong shipments in age3 (9 uhlan and 8 uhlan) and yea, you can even consider going naked ff as germany now.

- 3sw +2 to 2sw +1v isn't significant nerf, it's basicly -1 vills and not something gamechanging and from my experience germany eco is still so good.

- you can by-pass the uhlan cost nerf by going more naked FF's and ship 9/8 uhlans first and it shouldn't be a huge problem since you already have 4 free uhlans in age2.

-Jaegers are still quite strong, I would suggest nerfing their %40 RR to %30-%35 or something,

If we want this unit to be balanced.
also if we really want to balance Germany, most significant fix will be fixed crates I think.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I'm really not sure Germany was nerfed. RE Uhlan is just bigger than -1v at 5:10. Honestly, it might even be a buff lol.

Revert the uhlan buff and I think Germany will be balanced (still one of the strongest civs though) :

– Uhlan cost increased from 50f, 100c to 65f, 100c; hitpoints increased from 180 to 190

[Kaiserklein]

Don't touch 3 sw and keep dops at 240 hp. Jaeger nerf is good. Not a fan of the uhlan change since in some match ups you don't really train uhlans anyway, while in some others you train a lot of them.
Need to get less uhlans with shipments.

[Garja]

Ulhan change imo is not well tought. Ulhan as a trained unit was never a problem. The only problem is in 1v1 because you get too many in a short time span. Making them more expensive but with the original stats doesn't accomplish much. German semi FF mass will still be too good and Germans will be only relatively weaker in long drawn out games when they actually train lot of ulhans (not desirable).
+15f is also a huge cost increase, doesn't seem well tought either.

[Mitoe]

Don't touch 3 sw and keep dops at 240 hp. Jaeger nerf is good. Not a fan of the uhlan change since in some match ups you don't really train uhlans anyway, while in some others you train a lot of them.
Need to get less uhlans with shipments.

Even you're on this now? Less uhlans with shipments is just so unfun. Won't be Germany.

[Kaiserklein]

I've always said we should have less uhlans in key shipments like 8 skirms + 2 uhlans, 700w + 1 uhlan etc. I know it's sort of ugly but it's the least ugly I found. What else should we do?

[Mitoe]

I feel like it would be better to reduce the number of other units on those cards instead of the number of uhlans. 6 skirm and 7 skirm for example. At least that remains consistent with their civ bonus.

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– Settler Wagon ranged attack huntable multiplier increased from 3 to 5.75

Completely unnecessary, IMO. I would not consider this simply to keep the notes tidy.


Overall I'm meh on the changes. Might even be a buff.

I think it's a no-brainer buff to make the civilization not be unreasonably penalized on Bengal and Indonesia. Still, if it proves unpopular, I'm happy to abstain.

Expect the changes to be updated, if that turns out to be the case. Please let me know what you think, once you've tested them.

[[Armag] diarouga]

They hunt slower but build faster, it makes sense.

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I would stick with the jaeger nerf. If that's not enough, I would not only nerf the shipment but the unit stats as well. I strongly dislike messing with the 3sw shipment.

It seems unlikely that a Jäger nerf would be enough to balance the civilization. Regardless, I think the Uhlan hitpoints nerf is more than unpopular enough, to at least test alternatives.

I think the argument for nerfing "3SW" is convincing (it's one of the more obvious changes I can think of). If it turns out to be adverse, or unpopular, I'm open towards reverting it, same as most changes.

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To be fair, I am not really sure if we should consider Germany is "nerfed" let me explain why,

- having old stats of uhlans back basicly means you will have 2 more strong shipments in age3 (9 uhlan and 8 uhlan) and yea, you can even consider going naked ff as germany now.

- 3sw +2 to 2sw +1v isn't significant nerf, it's basicly -1 vills and not something gamechanging and from my experience germany eco is still so good.

- you can by-pass the uhlan cost nerf by going more naked FF's and ship 9/8 uhlans first and it shouldn't be a huge problem since you already have 4 free uhlans in age2.

-Jaegers are still quite strong, I would suggest nerfing their %40 RR to %30-%35 or something,

If we want this unit to be balanced.
also if we really want to balance Germany, most significant fix will be fixed crates I think.

Uhlans will be a tiny bit stronger. They will also be a more significant amount costlier. Losing a Settler in early Colonial is significant, to be sure.

I'm happy to update the changes (including the Jaeger nerf), according to testing feedback. It's important to test alternatives to the Uhlan hitpoints nerf, yet it remains vital that at least Uhlan production is weaker.

Fixing crates for all civilizations is an option, but one I'm hesitant towards, particularly for how controversial it is. Perhaps a Discovery Age (only) TP nerf is a good, and more popular idea.

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Don't touch 3 sw and keep dops at 240 hp. Jaeger nerf is good. Not a fan of the uhlan change since in some match ups you don't really train uhlans anyway, while in some others you train a lot of them.
Need to get less uhlans with shipments.

There are a few issues, with changing the number of Uhlans from scaling, to a static two:

1. It noticeably alters the civilization's major bonus. I think this should be avoided, if possible.
2. It doesn't nerf training Uhlans. I think this should be done, if possible.
3. It's unlikely to be sufficient, regardless.
4. It might require rebalancing of Mercenary shipments. While not insurmountable, this were less than ideal.

Before the hitpoints nerf, Uhlans were always 75-100% (typically 100%) of trained Germans units, with top players. I cannot overlook that fact.

I'd rather replace "The Exiled Prince" or nerf Discovery Age TPs, if changes are preferable.

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Ulhan change imo is not well tought. Ulhan as a trained unit was never a problem. The only problem is in 1v1 because you get too many in a short time span. Making them more expensive but with the original stats doesn't accomplish much. German semi FF mass will still be too good and Germans will be only relatively weaker in long drawn out games when they actually train lot of ulhans (not desirable).
+15f is also a huge cost increase, doesn't seem well tought either.

Please see above post. Together with the other changes, it reasonably accomplishes things.

If it proves undesirably large, I'm happy to tweak it.

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I feel like it would be better to reduce the number of other units on those cards instead of the number of uhlans. 6 skirm and 7 skirm for example. At least that remains consistent with their civ bonus.

I think that's an even worse idea, than fixing the number of Uhlans received to 2, for all shipments, Colonial Age onwards. It's just as nonsensical as making Spanish unit shipments exceptionally weak, because the civilization is too strong. Ideally, you nerf the civilization generally, balancing it neither by nerfing its bonus, or compensating for it with silly exceptions (or overcommitting to awfully unpopular changes). We should pursue such alternatives, instead.

What happened to these things feeling ridiculous and weird?

I'd prefer removing certain unit shipments, than deforming them.

[Kaiserklein]

I feel like it would be better to reduce the number of other units on those cards instead of the number of uhlans. 6 skirm and 7 skirm for example. At least that remains consistent with their civ bonus.

I mean, sure why not, this works too. The problem is that it doesn't nerf the early colo though. Say you have 6 and 7 skirms, 7 and 8 uhlans. You can still do 3 sw 700w 700g 3 WW sort of build. I'm not sure how to avoid that with your solution.

There are a few issues, with changing the number of Uhlans from scaling, to a static two:

I don't want to have a static 2 uhlans though.

1. It noticeably alters the civilization's major bonus. I think this should be avoided, if possible.

We won't balance germany without nerfing the amount of stuff they get, sadly.

2. It doesn't nerf training Uhlans. I think this should be done, if possible.

There's no reason to nerf training uhlans, really. They aren't anything special, even RE ones.

3. It's unlikely to be sufficient, regardless.

I'm pretty sure it is. At least more impactful than -1 vil and +15f on uhlans in match ups where you barely train uhlans.

4. It might require rebalancing of Mercenary shipments. While not insurmountable, this were less than ideal.

You're already rebalancing jaegers, and 9 BR is fine. It doesn't have to be perfectly in line with the amount of free uhlans.

Before the hitpoints nerf, Uhlans were always 75-100% (typically 100%) of trained Germans units, with top players. I cannot overlook that fact.

Because people played wrong. There's absolutely no reason one would train almost only uhlans in a majority of match ups. In fact it's probably not because of the hp nerf, but because the meta changed. I don't remember ever training only uhlans btw.

I'd rather replace "The Exiled Prince" or nerf Discovery Age TPs, if changes are preferable.

Removing the exiled prince isn't an option, it would totally kill the civ. Nerfing TPs in age 1 is good, but it's not enough of a nerf for germany, especially since it also affects many other civs.

[Goodspeed]

We won't balance germany without nerfing the amount of stuff they get, sadly.

If you mean without nerfing their shipments or civ bonus, that's just not true. There are many options besides that, including replacing exiled prince which zoi already mentioned, nerfing settler wagons, -1v and +200f at start (I know, not great), fixed 100w crate start (I know, even worse), etcetera.

Removing the exiled prince isn't an option, it would totally kill the civ.

I'm actually a really big fan of this, given the alternatives. You'd need to revert the uhlan nerf and perhaps another buff somewhere else is warranted to compensate but this is a very good change that should be seriously considered.
Nerfing settler wagon gather rate is elegant in that it will be barely noticeable in actual gameplay, is very tweakable and affect Germans generally.

That's assuming any of this is necessary. I think Germans might actually be okay after simply changing Jaegers. If not, both of the above changes are great options imo.

There's no reason to nerf training uhlans, really. They aren't anything special, even RE ones.

Agree with this. We opted for the stats change at first because a cost change needs to be bigger to have the same impact, and we felt that wasn't warranted.

Perhaps a Discovery Age (only) TP nerf is a good, and more popular idea.

Disgusting. It's disappointing that this is even being considered.

[Hazza54321]

Dont nerf goodspeeds precious tps, he wont be able to masturbate at night

[Goodspeed]

At the very least don't nerf them in only discovery age. If you're really considering changes like that, you apparently don't like the game designers' decision to make XP more valuable in the early game. What you should instead do if you are so passionate about "fixing" this made up issue is make the XP required for shipments start at a higher number and not increase as much per shipment sent.

[Kaiserklein]

If you mean without nerfing their shipments or civ bonus, that's just not true. There are many options besides that, including replacing exiled prince which zoi already mentioned, nerfing settler wagons, -1v and +200f at start (I know, not great), fixed 100w crate start (I know, even worse), etcetera.

Well yeah, the 100w or -1v changes are simply not an option for me haha.
Nerfing settler wagons is an option I guess, but I dislike nerfing the german eco because it nerfs them more on no tp than on tp maps, while nerfing shipments nerfs them more on tp maps (which is what we want). And in terms of design, having the unique vil being worse than the regular one also doesn't sound great. Imo nerfing the eco is simply going in the wrong direction.
Removing the exiled prince just completely changes the way the civ is played and it's also a huge nerf. Like, I wouldn't even consider doing that. I don't want people to start playing germany like you play spain, it's just boring.

I'm actually a really big fan of this, given the alternatives. You'd need to revert the uhlan nerf and perhaps another buff somewhere else is warranted to compensate but this is a very good change that should be seriously considered.

I don't understand what's good about it? It's such a huge change. It's like removing 400w.

Nerfing settler wagon gather rate is elegant in that it will be barely noticeable in actual gameplay, is very tweakable and affect Germans generally.

Like I said it would matter more on no tp, where you rely more on your eco, while it wouldn't make a big difference on tp maps where you'd just have maybe 1 or 2 less units at your timing.

That's assuming any of this is necessary. I think Germans might actually be okay after simply changing Jaegers. If not, both of the above changes are great options imo.

Jaeger nerf isn't enough, we definitely need some other nerf. You don't even get to ship jaegers most of the time anyway.

[Goodspeed]

Jaeger nerf isn't enough, we definitely need some other nerf. You don't even get to ship jaegers most of the time anyway.

I suppose I'll take your word for that.

Removing the exiled prince just completely changes the way the civ is played and it's also a huge nerf. Like, I wouldn't even consider doing that. I don't want people to start playing germany like you play spain, it's just boring.

I don't understand what's good about it? It's such a huge change. It's like removing 400w.

It changes the civ, yes, but in a good way imo. There will be much more build variety, more colonial play meaning more dopp play which is always exciting. I think the TP meta actually kind of ruined this civ, they became much too reliant on their TP into fast age semi-FF builds. The only way to make other builds relevant again is to nerf the one that is too strong, so that you can safely apply other buffs, which by the way would also have a positive effect on the viability of the civ on no-TP maps. It would even lower their dependency on the 200w crates because the early TP won't be as important.

Overall it's just a really good change. I would claim I would have gone for this change in an earlier patch iteration if I had been told about it, but that would risk zoi coming in here and saying "I did tell you about it you piece of shit" which would make me look dumb. So I'm not claiming that. But I am kicking past me for not doing it, if it was at any point suggested.
I guess I can always blame whoever suggested it for not arguing convincingly enough.

[Kaiserklein]

It changes the civ, yes, but in a good way imo. There will be much more build variety, more colonial play meaning more dopp play which is always exciting. I think the TP meta actually kind of ruined this civ, they became much too reliant on their TP into fast age semi-FF builds. The only way to make other builds relevant again is to nerf the one that is too strong, so that you can safely apply other buffs, which by the way would also have a positive effect on the viability of the civ on no-TP maps. It would even lower their dependency on the 200w crates because the early TP won't be as important.

I think you're very optimistic. Colonial play will be as viable as it is now in some match ups, say against aztecs or japan to some extent. But it still won't be viable in most match ups. You won't see people going dops against most musk civs. Also you just can't do much with colonial dop stuff if your opponent just goes for an infantry semi ff (cause well, he has the exiled prince...) once he scouted your rax.

I bet what would happen is people would just naked ff as ger in most match ups, kind of like spain does. Maybe 500f age up and 700g first, or just don't gather for a market in transition and 700g first, and just age with skirms. Ship 3 sw in transition and chop for a building, get some units out to protect your skirms. Try not to die to colo timings, which is hard but probably doable with free uhlans. Then spam your fortress shipments like you usually would. Not very exciting if you ask me.

[Goodspeed]

It changes the civ, yes, but in a good way imo. There will be much more build variety, more colonial play meaning more dopp play which is always exciting. I think the TP meta actually kind of ruined this civ, they became much too reliant on their TP into fast age semi-FF builds. The only way to make other builds relevant again is to nerf the one that is too strong, so that you can safely apply other buffs, which by the way would also have a positive effect on the viability of the civ on no-TP maps. It would even lower their dependency on the 200w crates because the early TP won't be as important.

I think you're very optimistic. Colonial play will be as viable as it is now in some match ups, say against aztecs or japan to some extent. But it still won't be viable in most match ups. You won't see people going dops against most musk civs. Also you just can't do much with colonial dop stuff if your opponent just goes for an infantry semi ff (cause well, he has the exiled prince...) once he scouted your rax.

I bet what would happen is people would just naked ff as ger in most match ups, kind of like spain does. Maybe 500f age up and 700g first, or just don't gather for a market in transition and 700g first, and just age with skirms. Ship 3 sw in transition and chop for a building, get some units out to protect your skirms. Try not to die to colo timings, which is hard but probably doable with free uhlans. Then spam your fortress shipments like you usually would. Not very exciting if you ask me.

I think you'd still see a lot of semi-FFs but more units made in colonial, with potential for games to stay in colonial depending on the opponent's response. Anyway it would depend on the buffs you go for. Reverting the uhlan nerf seems like a no-brainer but more is needed. It seems likely that musk nerfs or xbow buffs are already on the cards for later patches, that may be enough. Otherwise buffing dopps more may be an option, changing 5 uhlans to 6, etc.