Beta Germans Discussion

No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Mitoe wrote:To be honest I'm still not convinced Germany is really the top civ or even as strong as everyone says. Their winrate is surprisingly low for the "#1 civ," and their recent tournament performances are not very impressive either. I don't even feel scared to play against Germany on ladder regardless of the caliber of player I'm against.


lol ger in those statistics has 40% vs russia and 25% vs aztecs... meh germany doesn't have a counter. that in itself makes it the strongest civ basically. every other civ can be countered. The only reason germany's winrate is low is cuz half the maps on EP standard mapset are no tp maps like bengal, cascade etc.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Garja »

Germans is one of the top civs but not necessarily the top one. It's true there might not be a counter (on TP maps) but there are plenty of civs that do at least fine currently.
So a nerf is probably legit but should be careful of not overnerfing.
Image Image Image
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:
zoom wrote:"Like I said it's like removing 400w because a civ using it is too strong." – Did you happen to miss the British lacking the Quartermaster (400w), then? Changing something that isn't a unique feature of the civilization seems preferable to changing something that is. Not every civilization has the Exiled Prince. I don't see a particular reason that Germans has to have it. I do see it being a balance issue, combined with the civilization's uniquely strong Fortress-Age shipments, though. What's so bad about replacing the Exiled Prince for Germans, that it would "destroy the way the civilization works"!? Why would you prioritize nerfing the civilization's unique features, over something definitively not one?? Is there a logical argument against it, or is it strictly "it feels bad to me"? So far, that's all I've seen, whereas I see several ones in favor of it.

How hard is it to understand that removing one of the most important mechanics of a civ is very risky? Who cares about brits, they don't have 400w to begin with. Removing 400w from a civ that already has it would have huge implications. Just like removing the fast age. It's such a huge change, it would totally change the way the civ plays out. I don't know what else to tell you, it's just common sense to me. People are nitpicking about 5w on manors or 5f on cdbs while you're casually planning on totally changing the way a civ plays.
Keep in mind the teepee change for sioux turned out to be pretty much a disaster, because it totally changes the way the civ feels/plays out. Let's try to have reasonable changes, please.

zoom wrote:About the minimal changes question: That's exactly the point! It would allow for reverting other changes (by definition minimizing them), and not touching unique civilization features. It seems like a great thing to try. Still, if it's even more controversial than the Uhlan hitpoints nerf, I'd rather not do it.

No. This change is huge, it's against the minimal changes policy. It's not about how many changes, it's about how the civilization feels. I'd rather play the civ with less uhlans, lower hp uhlans, weaker tps, weaker settler wagons, or whatever else, than without fast age. We don't need to revamp germany, just to make it a bit weaker.

zoom wrote:About the Uhlan meta: I'm confident, that there was a point (one lasting several years), not too long before the Uhlan was nerfed, where the competitive meta was to train mostly (75% or more) Uhlans. That is factual. It is entirely possible, though, that that started to change, before the Uhlan nerf was made. I am not talking about any particular player, although as you mention him, Mitoe would definitely know what I'm talking about. Ask him all about it!

Well ask mitoe yourself, I don't need to. I've played hundreds of games vs him, especially back in 2015-2016 where uhlans still had RE hp, and neither of us would train pure uhlan lol. This is just a distorted vision of the civ, as distorted as people on RE saying "you can just pure skirm uhlan as germany it's OP" because they simply have no clue and can't hit and run.

zoom wrote:While you may be right in that said meta is no longer optimal (even without a nerfed Uhlan), disregarding the fact that it once was considered to be, for the longest time, seems irresponsible, to me.

If we currently know that trained uhlans aren't too strong, it's enough. The rest is irrelevant. No need to nerf it. Especially since, again, it's a bigger nerf on no TP than on TP maps.
About the British and the Quartermaster: The civilization is perfectly fine without the politician, and would undoubtedly be overpowered, with it.I see no reason to hold that Germans has to have the Exiled Prince (especially given the actual features of the civilization, and their balance implications with which we are trying to deal). I exposed your analogy.

I agree that it's a significant change. I don't agree that it were bad. In fact, the entire idea is for the change to be significant. I'm casually considering, discussing, and proposing it. I don't agree with making said change, if players are so opposed to it – even if they are lacking in logical arguments. Please don't presume to judge and misrepresent me.

The Teepee changes are problematic because they are flawed. There is no logical flaw in removing the Exiled Prince, that I can see. You simply don't like how you think it would feel – which is both fine, and important to me.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by zoom »

Mitoe wrote:To be honest I'm still not convinced Germany is really the top civ or even as strong as everyone says. Their winrate is surprisingly low for the "#1 civ," and their recent tournament performances are not very impressive either. I don't even feel scared to play against Germany on ladder regardless of the caliber of player I'm against.

There's lots of evidence to suggest that Germany is not as strong as everyone says, and yet everyone so easily dismisses it. Where, then, is the evidence to suggest that Germany is truly so overpowered?

Some of the voices that want change here are the ones who don't like the way Germany is balanced in team games, which is not unreasonable I guess.


Anyway, regardless of all that I think 12 Jaegers is a reasonable change, and possibly the 3 SW change as well (as much as it makes me gag). I still fail to see why 180hp uhlans needs to be done away with and such drastic alternatives sought out, however.
I'm definitely not dismissing it, and am well aware that the civilization is most likely overrated, at least in terms of poll results (on account simply of how extreme they are). It seems likely that it does warrant a nerf, however. I wouldn't call a "3 Settler Wagons" nerf drastic, though. In fact, I would call it much less drastic than an Uhlan hitpoints nerf. Yet, it isn't being made to replace it. The reason it is being replaced, is that it has always been unpopular, with many players. Thus, it seems desirable to explore options. Certainly, reverting it is one, too! At this point, some manner of concession seems unavoidable.

How do you feel about making "3 Settler Wagons" "2 Settler Wagons" infinite? It would preserve the uniformity of the shipment, and be consistent with the "1 Heavy Cannon" infinite shipment of the civilization, which also delivers 2 Uhlans.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by zoom »

Based on feedback, so far, I am considering making the following changes:

– Uhlan cost reduced from 65f, 100c to 60f, 100c [partial revert]
– “8 Uhlans” shipment decreased to 7 Uhlans
– “9 Uhlans” shipment decreased to 8 Uhlans

This would make the civilization's Fortress Age Uhlan shipments consistent with its Colonial and Industrial Age ones, which are already at least one unit short, for balance reasons. It were a relatively elegant way of counteracting the perceived balance issues, without being particularly intrusive. Combined with nerfing the Exiled Prince and Fortress Age the Messenger from 45 to 50 seconds (which would also make the effect consistent with that for every other age, at -60s), it might work well. Possibly, it would even allow for reverting the "3 Settler Wagons" nerf.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Garja »

That's strictly a buff to Germans. Cost nerf and the 2cards-only nerf barely scratch typical German fortress play while RE ulhans just make it harder again to deal with.
Honestly current ulhans seems just about as strong as they should be. They still deal lot of damage when they connect but they also drop fast against their counter as they should.
Image Image Image
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

That's a buff to Germany yea.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

zoom wrote:About the British and the Quartermaster: The civilization is perfectly fine without the politician, and would undoubtedly be overpowered, with it.I see no reason to hold that Germans has to have the Exiled Prince (especially given the actual features of the civilization, and their balance implications with which we are trying to deal). I exposed your analogy.

German strategies revolve around the exiled prince. I'm just saying removing it is as big of a change as, for example, giving it to brits. It's a huge risk in terms of balance, and it's gonna totally change the way the civ is played. And extremely off-putting.

zoom wrote:I agree that it's a significant change. I don't agree that it were bad. In fact, the entire idea is for the change to be significant. I'm casually considering, discussing, and proposing it. I don't agree with making said change, if players are so opposed to it – even if they are lacking in logical arguments. Please don't presume to judge and misrepresent me.

I didn't mean to. Anyway, there are logical arguments. As I explained, I think this would make germany very close to spain, which isn't what we want, do we? Either way, it's just so much bigger than, say, 180 hp uhlans. Like Mitoe said, I don't see why we'd need such drastic changes.

zoom wrote:The Teepee changes are problematic because they are flawed. There is no logical flaw in removing the Exiled Prince, that I can see. You simply don't like how you think it would feel – which is both fine, and important to me.

I don't like how it would totally change the way the civ plays out, nor how impactul of a change it is in terms of balance.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

zoom wrote:Based on feedback, so far, I am considering making the following changes:

– Uhlan cost reduced from 65f, 100c to 60f, 100c [partial revert]
– “8 Uhlans” shipment decreased to 7 Uhlans
– “9 Uhlans” shipment decreased to 8 Uhlans

This would make the civilization's Fortress Age Uhlan shipments consistent with its Colonial and Industrial Age ones, which are already at least one unit short, for balance reasons. It were a relatively elegant way of counteracting the perceived balance issues, without being particularly intrusive. Combined with nerfing the Exiled Prince and Fortress Age the Messenger from 45 to 50 seconds (which would also make the effect consistent with that for every other age, at -60s), it might work well. Possibly, it would even allow for reverting the "3 Settler Wagons" nerf.

Well trained uhlans don't need a nerf, so it's still a useless change. and 8/9 uhlans aren't even problematic, or rather, not more problematic than other fortress unit shipments, so idk why we'd specifically nerf these. If anything, when going for your typical ff or semi ff, you rely on 3 wws and/or 8 skirms to hold once in fortress. 9 uhlans isn't even one of your first shipments most of the time, and 8 uhlans is usually one I send quite late in fortress when I used most other shipments already, including mercs and cav combat among others, so really not one of the strongest german shipments.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by deleted_user »

considering the games, I think germany should never have acces to 200w start, it's just making things go 30 sec faster and makes the civ turn out to moesbar even more, I think fixed crates will be helping the balance of germany
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

What an original suggestion
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by zoom »

Besides its past (and current, to a seemingly lesser extent) unpopularity, I think the Uhlan HP nerf is a sound change. Given that no acceptable and currently more popular option has been suggested, focus should be on more important changes, with lesser risk to inter-civilization balance. Resultingly, efforts to replace the Uhlan HP nerf have been put on ice. Whether Germans warrants additional nerfs should be reconsidered, before the end of the beta.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by zoom »

deleted_user wrote:considering the games, I think germany should never have acces to 200w start, it's just making things go 30 sec faster and makes the civ turn out to moesbar even more, I think fixed crates will be helping the balance of germany
In the long run, fixed crates would benefit inter-civilization balance. In the short to mid term, it would ruin it. That's not even mentioning the slough of other problems with the change.

Nerfing Germans TPs is an acceptable option, but should only be considered if the civilization cannot otherwise be sufficiently balanced. Like Goodspeed has said many times: If Germans is overpowered on a TP start, it is overpowered on any start. The difference in benefit of having a TP isn't that significant, in most match-ups, since the opponent also gets a wood start. Still, if a majority of players agree that the TP is the actual issue, I would accept such a change (E.G cost increase or availability moved to Colonial).
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Garja »

In the long run they wouldn't benefit balance. Breaking the mirror crate mechanic is clearly going to worsen balance rather than improve. The only long term beneficial change, if anything, would be totally remove any extra crate leaving the base ones only.
Regardless, breeze point is ridicolous.
Image Image Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV