Beta Germans Discussion

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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:Ulhan change imo is not well tought. Ulhan as a trained unit was never a problem. The only problem is in 1v1 because you get too many in a short time span. Making them more expensive but with the original stats doesn't accomplish much. German semi FF mass will still be too good and Germans will be only relatively weaker in long drawn out games when they actually train lot of ulhans (not desirable).
+15f is also a huge cost increase, doesn't seem well tought either.
Please see above post. Together with the other changes, it reasonably accomplishes things.

If it proves undesirably large, I'm happy to tweak it.

What should I get from the above post? :hmm:
The only related words to my posts are that "Uhlans were always 75-100% (typically 100%) of trained Germans units, with top players" which is not even true. Ulhans are probably trained less than skirms and WW for the simple reason you get lot of them from cards.
Regardless of the actual amount of units trained, the change simply doesn't make sense. It is simply not coherent with the scope. Trained ulhans are fine, shipped ulhans are not. You nerf trained ulhans. Logic :uglylol:
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

People would probably go for 500f ff builds or bow/wall semi yes.
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

The German FF is much more eco heavy than the Spanish FF. It's more easily counterable. Bow/wall semi is rather passive especially with fast age unavailable. I highly doubt you'd see one of those builds every game.
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

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Goodspeed wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Jaeger nerf isn't enough, we definitely need some other nerf. You don't even get to ship jaegers most of the time anyway.
I suppose I'll take your word for that.
Removing the exiled prince just completely changes the way the civ is played and it's also a huge nerf. Like, I wouldn't even consider doing that. I don't want people to start playing germany like you play spain, it's just boring.

I don't understand what's good about it? It's such a huge change. It's like removing 400w.
It changes the civ, yes, but in a good way imo. There will be much more build variety, more colonial play meaning more dopp play which is always exciting. I think the TP meta actually kind of ruined this civ, they became much too reliant on their TP into fast age semi-FF builds. The only way to make other builds relevant again is to nerf the one that is too strong, so that you can safely apply other buffs, which by the way would also have a positive effect on the viability of the civ on no-TP maps. It would even lower their dependency on the 200w crates because the early TP won't be as important.

Overall it's just a really good change. I would claim I would have gone for this change in an earlier patch iteration if I had been told about it, but that would risk zoi coming in here and saying "I did tell you about it you piece of shit" which would make me look dumb. So I'm not claiming that. But I am kicking past me for not doing it, if it was at any point suggested.
I guess I can always blame whoever suggested it for not arguing convincingly enough.


I like it. It might even negate the need to nerf german early tp openings. bow pike semi's are great, but with fast age unavailable, they run into the same problems that a spain semi ff has, that is, they might get crushed by a timing when they just clicked up to age, and the age up takes too long for it to be in time to help hold the timing.
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Garja »

Changing politicians (especially the exiled prince one) shouldn't be something negotiable. Exiled prince is something bounded to certain civs and Germans are one of the major exponents of that (being your standard land, shipment based civ, just like French).
There many other less intrusive changes.
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Change the politician. Best idea so far. Keep m comiing @Goodspeed
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:
zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:Ulhan change imo is not well tought. Ulhan as a trained unit was never a problem. The only problem is in 1v1 because you get too many in a short time span. Making them more expensive but with the original stats doesn't accomplish much. German semi FF mass will still be too good and Germans will be only relatively weaker in long drawn out games when they actually train lot of ulhans (not desirable).
+15f is also a huge cost increase, doesn't seem well tought either.
Please see above post. Together with the other changes, it reasonably accomplishes things.

If it proves undesirably large, I'm happy to tweak it.

What should I get from the above post? :hmm:
The only related words to my posts are that "Uhlans were always 75-100% (typically 100%) of trained Germans units, with top players" which is not even true. Ulhans are probably trained less than skirms and WW for the simple reason you get lot of them from cards.
Regardless of the actual amount of units trained, the change simply doesn't make sense. It is simply not coherent with the scope. Trained ulhans are fine, shipped ulhans are not. You nerf trained ulhans. Logic :uglylol:
You're wrong. Uhlans were literally 75-100% of what any top player trained. Uhlans are trained less because they were nerfed. If it is the only unit you train, the Uhlan is not fine. It is a big problem. In fact, only the trained Uhlan is necessarily a problem. There is nothing inherently problematic about shipped Uhlans; the civilization is simply too strong, overall, and you're narrow-mindedly ascribing it to shipped Uhlans.

Expand your perspective!
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:Changing politicians (especially the exiled prince one) shouldn't be something negotiable. Exiled prince is something bounded to certain civs and Germans are one of the major exponents of that (being your standard land, shipment based civ, just like French).
There many other less intrusive changes.
Anything any civilization has is bound to a certain civilization. This wouldn't be touching any unique civilization feature. If Germans never had Exiled Prince, to begin with, and I suggested to give it to the civilization, you'd be crying about how whatever politician I were replacing is bound to the civilization and cannot be changed.
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

umeu wrote:Change the politician. Best idea so far. Keep m comiing @Goodspeed
Wasn't my idea I just really like it
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Garja »

w/e really you're just in denial with the truth
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

If there's one civ in the game that relies on fast age, it's germany. I don't understand why we'd remove it. Like I said it's like removing 400w because a civ using it is too strong. I wish we could balance EP without totally destroying the way the civs work. What happened to the "minimal changes" policy, trying to keep the game close to RE, not totally changing the way a civ feels?

zoom wrote:You're wrong. Uhlans were literally 75-100% of what any top player trained. Uhlans are trained less because they were nerfed. If it is the only unit you train, the Uhlan is not fine. It is a big problem. In fact, only the trained Uhlan is necessarily a problem. There is nothing inherently problematic about shipped Uhlans; the civilization is simply too strong, overall, and you're narrow-mindedly ascribing it to shipped Uhlans.

Expand your perspective!

Man, no. People training mass uhlans was just due to the old school 3 sw 700g semi (which was still quite popular in 2015 and also on nilla), plus bad maps and... bad gameplay. Basically 3sw 700g 8 skirms 7 skirms, no rax, because people went skirm/goons vs skirm/uhlan (which is bad), the map had low res so people were more aggressive, you just wanted to raid and reach fortress asap.
But in fact whenever I played germans, or watched Mitoe play germans on EP, even before the uhlans were nerfed (or when they had 185 hp too), we didn't go pure uhlan lol. I'm really not sure what you're talking about.

The trained uhlan was NEVER a problem. You're going to nerf the wrong stuff if you believe that.
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

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Kaiserklein wrote:What happened to the "minimal changes" policy,


Obviously the policy was abandoned considering half of the ep changes are taking part to overnerf sea while %80 of them were not even needed at all, canoe range nerf for the first example, who was asked for it? were canoes broken? so much unnecessary changes were implemented already. I don't know if it's right call to talk about it after few germany change though
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea, currently there's a big issue with the EP policy. I wish there was more transparency about it, the top players and the community should have their say about it.
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Cometk »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yea, currently there's a big issue with the EP policy. I wish there was more transparency about it, the top players and the community should have their say about it.

included at the top of the ep 7.0.x beta release thread, https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=17932
At the literal bottom of ESOC’s Population Statistics page, it can be seen that EP has seen strong growth, in 2019. Also, with inter-civilization balance relatively stable, there’s never been a better time to expand on the improvements of the patch. Currently, in no order of priority, these are my goals for the patch:

1. Improving balance (between civilizations, first; between options, second).
2. Improving community experience, in general, and user experience, in particular.
3. Increasing adoption by means of the above.

can we stop pretending now? i'm losing my patience
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I didn't see that thanks.
From what I see though, improving balance between options comes before improving balance bewteen civilizations.
Improving community experience is not precise enough as it's hard to know how to do that. I think that we should make more polls about the changes for that.
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

deleted_user wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:What happened to the "minimal changes" policy,


Obviously the policy was abandoned considering half of the ep changes are taking part to overnerf sea while %80 of them were not even needed at all, canoe range nerf for the first example, who was asked for it? were canoes broken? so much unnecessary changes were implemented already. I don't know if it's right call to talk about it after few germany change though

The difference is that water is obviously broken on RE. And I don't mean OP, but broken. You kinda have to revamp it, because there's so many issues: warships random rof, offshore support, schooners, monitors, etc. Water is just a huge mess on RE and we all know that. Then yeah, there were probably some unnecessary water changes on EP.
Meanwhile, germany is just too strong, not "broken". So you don't have to revamp it, just nerf it. And to me, removing a politician (or I should say THE politician) isn't just a nerf, it's changing the way the civ works. Even funnier, we're trying to balance the exiled prince already by adding 10s compared to RE... So why remove it now lol.

Also yeah, canoes were OP, everyone knows that. Actually iirc, Kynesie was advocating a canoe nerf on EP.
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:If there's one civ in the game that relies on fast age, it's germany. I don't understand why we'd remove it. Like I said it's like removing 400w because a civ using it is too strong. I wish we could balance EP without totally destroying the way the civs work. What happened to the "minimal changes" policy, trying to keep the game close to RE, not totally changing the way a civ feels?

zoom wrote:You're wrong. Uhlans were literally 75-100% of what any top player trained. Uhlans are trained less because they were nerfed. If it is the only unit you train, the Uhlan is not fine. It is a big problem. In fact, only the trained Uhlan is necessarily a problem. There is nothing inherently problematic about shipped Uhlans; the civilization is simply too strong, overall, and you're narrow-mindedly ascribing it to shipped Uhlans.

Expand your perspective!

Man, no. People training mass uhlans was just due to the old school 3 sw 700g semi (which was still quite popular in 2015 and also on nilla), plus bad maps and... bad gameplay. Basically 3sw 700g 8 skirms 7 skirms, no rax, because people went skirm/goons vs skirm/uhlan (which is bad), the map had low res so people were more aggressive, you just wanted to raid and reach fortress asap.
But in fact whenever I played germans, or watched Mitoe play germans on EP, even before the uhlans were nerfed (or when they had 185 hp too), we didn't go pure uhlan lol. I'm really not sure what you're talking about.

The trained uhlan was NEVER a problem. You're going to nerf the wrong stuff if you believe that.
"Like I said it's like removing 400w because a civ using it is too strong." – Did you happen to miss the British lacking the Quartermaster (400w), then? Changing something that isn't a unique feature of the civilization seems preferable to changing something that is. Not every civilization has the Exiled Prince. I don't see a particular reason that Germans has to have it. I do see it being a balance issue, combined with the civilization's uniquely strong Fortress-Age shipments, though. What's so bad about replacing the Exiled Prince for Germans, that it would "destroy the way the civilization works"!? Why would you prioritize nerfing the civilization's unique features, over something definitively not one?? Is there a logical argument against it, or is it strictly "it feels bad to me"? So far, that's all I've seen, whereas I see several ones in favor of it.

About the minimal changes question: That's exactly the point! It would allow for reverting other changes (by definition minimizing them), and not touching unique civilization features. It seems like a great thing to try. Still, if it's even more controversial than the Uhlan hitpoints nerf, I'd rather not do it.

About the Uhlan meta: I'm confident, that there was a point (one lasting several years), not too long before the Uhlan was nerfed, where the competitive meta was to train mostly (75% or more) Uhlans. That is factual. It is entirely possible, though, that that started to change, before the Uhlan nerf was made. I am not talking about any particular player, although as you mention him, Mitoe would definitely know what I'm talking about. Ask him all about it!

While you may be right in that said meta is no longer optimal (even without a nerfed Uhlan), disregarding the fact that it once was considered to be, for the longest time, seems irresponsible, to me.
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by zoom »

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:Changing politicians (especially the exiled prince one) shouldn't be something negotiable. Exiled prince is something bounded to certain civs and Germans are one of the major exponents of that (being your standard land, shipment based civ, just like French).
There many other less intrusive changes.
Anything any civilization has is bound to a certain civilization. This wouldn't be touching any unique civilization feature. If Germans never had Exiled Prince, to begin with, and I suggested to give it to the civilization, you'd be crying about how whatever politician I were replacing is bound to the civilization and cannot be changed.
Unlike the Spanish, which isn't shipment based?
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:
deleted_user wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:What happened to the "minimal changes" policy,


Obviously the policy was abandoned considering half of the ep changes are taking part to overnerf sea while %80 of them were not even needed at all, canoe range nerf for the first example, who was asked for it? were canoes broken? so much unnecessary changes were implemented already. I don't know if it's right call to talk about it after few germany change though

The difference is that water is obviously broken on RE. And I don't mean OP, but broken. You kinda have to revamp it, because there's so many issues: warships random rof, offshore support, schooners, monitors, etc. Water is just a huge mess on RE and we all know that. Then yeah, there were probably some unnecessary water changes on EP.
Meanwhile, germany is just too strong, not "broken". So you don't have to revamp it, just nerf it. And to me, removing a politician (or I should say THE politician) isn't just a nerf, it's changing the way the civ works. Even funnier, we're trying to balance the exiled prince already by adding 10s compared to RE... So why remove it now lol.

Also yeah, canoes were OP, everyone knows that. Actually iirc, Kynesie was advocating a canoe nerf on EP.
What if Germans is broken with the Exiled Prince – wouldn't it make more sense to remove the generic politician from the civilization, instead of removing the civilization from itself?
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

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zoom wrote:"Like I said it's like removing 400w because a civ using it is too strong." – Did you happen to miss the British lacking the Quartermaster (400w), then? Changing something that isn't a unique feature of the civilization seems preferable to changing something that is. Not every civilization has the Exiled Prince. I don't see a particular reason that Germans has to have it. I do see it being a balance issue, combined with the civilization's uniquely strong Fortress-Age shipments, though. What's so bad about replacing the Exiled Prince for Germans, that it would "destroy the way the civilization works"!? Why would you prioritize nerfing the civilization's unique features, over something definitively not one?? Is there a logical argument against it, or is it strictly "it feels bad to me"? So far, that's all I've seen, whereas I see several ones in favor of it.

How hard is it to understand that removing one of the most important mechanics of a civ is very risky? Who cares about brits, they don't have 400w to begin with. Removing 400w from a civ that already has it would have huge implications. Just like removing the fast age. It's such a huge change, it would totally change the way the civ plays out. I don't know what else to tell you, it's just common sense to me. People are nitpicking about 5w on manors or 5f on cdbs while you're casually planning on totally changing the way a civ plays.
Keep in mind the teepee change for sioux turned out to be pretty much a disaster, because it totally changes the way the civ feels/plays out. Let's try to have reasonable changes, please.

zoom wrote:About the minimal changes question: That's exactly the point! It would allow for reverting other changes (by definition minimizing them), and not touching unique civilization features. It seems like a great thing to try. Still, if it's even more controversial than the Uhlan hitpoints nerf, I'd rather not do it.

No. This change is huge, it's against the minimal changes policy. It's not about how many changes, it's about how the civilization feels. I'd rather play the civ with less uhlans, lower hp uhlans, weaker tps, weaker settler wagons, or whatever else, than without fast age. We don't need to revamp germany, just to make it a bit weaker.

zoom wrote:About the Uhlan meta: I'm confident, that there was a point (one lasting several years), not too long before the Uhlan was nerfed, where the competitive meta was to train mostly (75% or more) Uhlans. That is factual. It is entirely possible, though, that that started to change, before the Uhlan nerf was made. I am not talking about any particular player, although as you mention him, Mitoe would definitely know what I'm talking about. Ask him all about it!

Well ask mitoe yourself, I don't need to. I've played hundreds of games vs him, especially back in 2015-2016 where uhlans still had RE hp, and neither of us would train pure uhlan lol. This is just a distorted vision of the civ, as distorted as people on RE saying "you can just pure skirm uhlan as germany it's OP" because they simply have no clue and can't hit and run.

zoom wrote:While you may be right in that said meta is no longer optimal (even without a nerfed Uhlan), disregarding the fact that it once was considered to be, for the longest time, seems irresponsible, to me.

If we currently know that trained uhlans aren't too strong, it's enough. The rest is irrelevant. No need to nerf it. Especially since, again, it's a bigger nerf on no TP than on TP maps.
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Kaiserklein wrote:
zoom wrote:"Like I said it's like removing 400w because a civ using it is too strong." – Did you happen to miss the British lacking the Quartermaster (400w), then? Changing something that isn't a unique feature of the civilization seems preferable to changing something that is. Not every civilization has the Exiled Prince. I don't see a particular reason that Germans has to have it. I do see it being a balance issue, combined with the civilization's uniquely strong Fortress-Age shipments, though. What's so bad about replacing the Exiled Prince for Germans, that it would "destroy the way the civilization works"!? Why would you prioritize nerfing the civilization's unique features, over something definitively not one?? Is there a logical argument against it, or is it strictly "it feels bad to me"? So far, that's all I've seen, whereas I see several ones in favor of it.

How hard is it to understand that removing one of the most important mechanics of a civ is very risky? Who cares about brits, they don't have 400w to begin with. Removing 400w from a civ that already has it would have huge implications. Just like removing the fast age. It's such a huge change, it would totally change the way the civ plays out. I don't know what else to tell you, it's just common sense to me. People are nitpicking about 5w on manors or 5f on cdbs while you're casually planning on totally changing the way a civ plays.
Keep in mind the teepee change for sioux turned out to be pretty much a disaster, because it totally changes the way the civ feels/plays out. Let's try to have reasonable changes, please.

zoom wrote:About the minimal changes question: That's exactly the point! It would allow for reverting other changes (by definition minimizing them), and not touching unique civilization features. It seems like a great thing to try. Still, if it's even more controversial than the Uhlan hitpoints nerf, I'd rather not do it.

No. This change is huge, it's against the minimal changes policy. It's not about how many changes, it's about how the civilization feels. I'd rather play the civ with less uhlans, lower hp uhlans, weaker tps, weaker settler wagons, or whatever else, than without fast age. We don't need to revamp germany, just to make it a bit weaker.

zoom wrote:About the Uhlan meta: I'm confident, that there was a point (one lasting several years), not too long before the Uhlan was nerfed, where the competitive meta was to train mostly (75% or more) Uhlans. That is factual. It is entirely possible, though, that that started to change, before the Uhlan nerf was made. I am not talking about any particular player, although as you mention him, Mitoe would definitely know what I'm talking about. Ask him all about it!

Well ask mitoe yourself, I don't need to. I've played hundreds of games vs him, especially back in 2015-2016 where uhlans still had RE hp, and neither of us would train pure uhlan lol. This is just a distorted vision of the civ, as distorted as people on RE saying "you can just pure skirm uhlan as germany it's OP" because they simply have no clue and can't hit and run.

zoom wrote:While you may be right in that said meta is no longer optimal (even without a nerfed Uhlan), disregarding the fact that it once was considered to be, for the longest time, seems irresponsible, to me.

If we currently know that trained uhlans aren't too strong, it's enough. The rest is irrelevant. No need to nerf it. Especially since, again, it's a bigger nerf on no TP than on TP maps.



tbh, the teepees didn't really change how sioux is played, they're mostly changed by the maps. on RE sioux could play raiding style, because civs had to leave base for hunts at 7 mins. On EP sometimes you can stay in base for 20 mins, and the angles to raid are usually easy to block off, the maps aren't as open as many of the re maps, with nat tp's and lakes or cliffs creating chokes that can easily be walled off or built in for LOS. And ofc, the BR nerf also plays a role.

In any case, on RE I already played sioux the way I play it on EP, aka, get tps and make axe wakina mostly. it's just a bit stronger here.
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

On RE you didn't sit in a fortified base until minute 16 and then take a huge fight. Sure it's partly because you have more food in your base thanks to the maps, but the teepees are also a huge incentive to turtle like that.
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

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Kaiserklein wrote:On RE you didn't sit in a fortified base until minute 16 and then take a huge fight. Sure it's partly because you have more food in your base, but the teepees are also a huge incentive to turtle like that.


you don't do that now either. It depends on the mu. In some mu's you do that. But in other mu's you go aggressive and take the map. In some other mu's you run around the map and raid, though that's more difficult now, and with the BR nerf, the army composition changed a bit. It was the same on RE honestly. Obviously it's more so on EP, but it's not really just because of teepees. It's a whole lot of other things combined. And you definitely overstate how different the style of play is. Sioux has always been a timing civ, wait for cav ups and dogsoldier at 15-16m, and then fight. Teepees didn't change that.

for example in this game on RE patch, from 2016, you can see me playing exactly like that.

and another game, vs you actually, also in 2016, I played sioux vs japan the same way I would play now with teepees. the difference is probably just that my timing would be stronger.
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Re: Beta Germans Discussion

Post by Mitoe »

To be honest I'm still not convinced Germany is really the top civ or even as strong as everyone says. Their winrate is surprisingly low for the "#1 civ," and their recent tournament performances are not very impressive either. I don't even feel scared to play against Germany on ladder regardless of the caliber of player I'm against.

There's lots of evidence to suggest that Germany is not as strong as everyone says, and yet everyone so easily dismisses it. Where, then, is the evidence to suggest that Germany is truly so overpowered?

Some of the voices that want change here are the ones who don't like the way Germany is balanced in team games, which is not unreasonable I guess.


Anyway, regardless of all that I think 12 Jaegers is a reasonable change, and possibly the 3 SW change as well (as much as it makes me gag). I still fail to see why 180hp uhlans needs to be done away with and such drastic alternatives sought out, however.
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Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Beta Germans Discussion

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:Their winrate is surprisingly low for the "#1 civ

So Spain is the #2 civ and Brit/Sioux the worst civs? These statistics are irrelevant.

As for tourney, it's mostly because people counterpick with close MUs against Ger. Germany is only played against the 5 civs that do decent against it, which is why their winrate is around 50%. If Germany was played against Japan, Aztec, Spain, Otto, Dutch or Port in tourney, the winrate would be much higher.
The op thing about Germany, is that it can't get counter picked (the only other civ that can't be counter picked is Iro, which is op as well).

Close MUs :

Iro, France, Brit

Slightly ger favoured MUs : If the ger player doesn't make a mistake (which is not easy true), then Germany should win

China, India, Sioux (but the ger players refuse to wall, play this MU against breeze and then tell me it's Sioux favoured, sioux is nerfed next patch anyway), Russia

Heavily ger favoured MUs : If you lose this as Germany, you got outplayed

Japan, Aztec, Spain, Otto, Dutch, Port


The point is that Germany doesn't lose a single MU and has a lot of good MUs. They don't have a great tournament winrate because the civ is hard to play and faces France, iro, Brit, China, India or Sioux every time, but the civ is still too good.

I think that the jaeger nerf + 3 SW nerf + 180 HP uhlans is deserved.

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